Ditto, 'disgusting' is definitely the choice word.

Your pilot group negotiating better pay from YOUR company is not the same as you guys demanding a privilege from MY company.

And yes, it is a privilege. Not a benefit, not a right, not part of the compensation package. My company can change your travel privileges any time they see fit(as they can with mainline also).

you delta guys are embarrassing.

Oh lest you forget, as much as you loathe the thought, we are the same company.

Just ask any passenger on a Comair flight, they think they are on Delta.

I wouldn't let the one child represent the whole family. I doubt they're all like that.

No they are not.

I know, I've met some really humble guys out there willing to help when you most need them.

The truth is one arrogant pilot is one too many.

That is because Delta sold ASA. Prior to that, you would board by DOH on ASA. Now the new-hire ASA guy boards before you. Apparently ASA wasn't the only one to get scrood.

That's funny, I've been a commuter for 14 years. Many times I have given up my reserved jumpseat and took the F/A jumpseat so a regional guy could get to/from work. You label me as a child because I don't support your demand of a change to your privilege? You label me not humble when I've done ANYTHING possible to get commuters on my flight, including standing by the gate agent so we would not leave a regional guy behind.

Just because I voice my opinion and disagreement over your loss of a privilege does not mean I don't try to get EVERY non rev on the aircraft. You have your opinion on this subject, I have mine. Mine seems to be in line with DAL management and most DAL pilots.

Just to toss out some ideas. . .

Complications related to implementation aside, would you (speaking on behalf of "most DAL pilots") support a change to the pass benefits that would enable a commuting pilot or flight attendant of a regional subsidiary to use S3 status?

How does being a wholly owned subsidiary mean you should get reduced benefits?? In the end, being the employee of a subsidiary of delta should be the same as being an employee of delta. Of course the mainline guys are ok with this, all excuses aside, it doesn't matter if it's right or not, just that it's in their benefit. Maybe if you stepped up for once and demanded the same benefits and salaries for those at the wholly owned companies, there would be less of an incentive to outsource flying in general... The arrogance of some mainline guys on this board is astounding...

You may have a legitimate argument with contract carriers, but they should still have priority on their own metal...

I don't speak for DAL pilots, never said I did. However, I do speak TO DAL pilots on a daily basis and know how we (as a group) feel on numerous subjects. Read DAL pilots responses on this thread, all of us have similar opinions.

Now, to answer your question, on a mainline flight...no. On another DCI carrier...I would not have a problem.

I did not label you as a child. It was used figuratively. I can't say I'm sorry you take everything literally. You're not really a child nor is Delta your real family. It was a comparison. You wouldn't want one of your children to give others a bad image of your whole family. Make sense?

I'm fairly certain you have not asked this particular question nor have you heard it directly from the other 12000 pilots at the company so it's kind of an exaggeration to say you know what the majority of the DAL pilots desire. You can only assume. Regardless, it doesn't matter what you really feel. DAL mgmt called the shots and they don't really care what one pilot really thinks. It is what it is.

Would you and other Delta pilots support say Wholly Owned active employees traveling as S3B on mainline flights? I think that is still a fair option.

According to page 11 of Delta Air Lines, Inc. (of which Delta and Northwest are subsidiaries) 2008 SEC Filing:

"As of December 31, 2008, we (Delta Air Lines, Inc.) had a total of 84,306 full-time equivalent employees. Approximately 42% of these employees were represented by unions, including the following domestic employee groups.

Delta Pilots (including pre-merger NWA pilots) 11,040
Delta Flight Superintendants (Dispatchers) 180
NWA Dispatchers 150
NWA Fleet Service, Passenger Service, Office/Clerical 11,030
NWA Simulator Technicians 40
NWA Stock Clerks 270
NWA Flight Attendants 6,290
NWA Mechanics and Related Employees 900
NWA Plant Protection Employees 10
NWA Tech Operations Trainers, Planners, Analysts 170
NWA Meteorologists 20
Comair Pilots 1,190
Comair Maintenance Employees 500
Comair Flight Attendants 790
Compass Pilots 320
Mesaba Pilots 1,090
Mesaba Flight Attendants 650
Mesaba Mechanics and Related Employees 310
Mesaba Dispatchers 25 "


So is Delta falsifying SEC reports by saying Comair Pilots are employees when in fact they are not?

The arrogance you refer to, is it the same arrogance that had the CMR MEC's stated position that any furloughee must resign his original seniority number to come work for CMR during the 2001-2007 timeframe? Talk about brother helping a fellow brother in need. And why is it up to us to argue for your wages and benefits? I do think you should be brought up, supported CMR guys on strike in 2001, but in the end only the respective employee group can fight their fight. CMR guys certainly didn't rally behind the DAL guys the past eight years.

It may be a privilege for you, but for a DAL pilot, travel benefits are a contractual right. From the Delta PWA Section 24:

L. Free and Reduced Rate Transportation
1. Free and reduced rate transportation privileges granted by Company policy to noncontract personnel now or in the future, will be extended to pilots.
2. There will be no substantial reduction in on-line transportation privileges as a whole, for pilots during the term of this PWA.

I guess Comair pilots should have had a similar clause in THEIR contract. :(

PG

Really?

This is you honest opinion?

Why? I mean really tell me why.

You claim you are such a hero for taking the FA jumpseat to help out a commuting regional guy, yet you decide this is a helping hand you are not willing to give. I don't get it. How do S3's, for commuting only, hurt you?

This thread proves to me a few things that I always thought:
1. Most pilots would eat their young if it meant a better life for themselves.
2. If someone isn't pisin and moaning about something, they are not a pilot.
3. Our ALPA, is not a union, it is an association. Meaning that if you are a member of ALPA, you are just associated with it. A union is unified not divided. If our groups worked together and everyone was not out for themselves, this job would have a good future in america. I wonder if their is a Medical Doctors Central forum where they all bit88 about each others bosses?

I was at CMR at that time, and now a NERD (NeverEverRealDelta). And not to steal the thread, it was CMR mgmt that was in charge of the hiring, not our MEC. Also, some believed that the Real Delta pilots wanted to come in as Captains and displace the bottom of our list. Also, somewhere, not sure, in the ALPA bylaws, you can't have 2 ALPA cards at 2 different ALPA carriers. One more thing, I remember being on strike in 01, the Delta guys were kind enough to walk with us. However, the signs they carried talked about their upcoming contract that helped send them in to BR along with us. Then when they got the contract they, delta pilots, were encougaging us to settle for a worse contract then we got. So, it is not about treating the regional carriers like a triple A club. I for one am glad we didn't hire the delta guys at that time, because all it would have done is caused a bunch of training for our company to write in the books. Rant over for me...BTW when I get a chance to fly with a real delta guy, nothing will be mentioned of Comair.

If its a Delta flight number then if it your metal, then I think it should go DOH between the two of us. If I am more senior to you then I shold have priority. Remember the flying your company is doing is contracted for MY Company....plain and simple. Rage on.....:)

I do not have an issue if you get DOH but every for DCI pilot should get their then, and all of the military guys should get credit for their YOS. (In effect a pipe dream)
All they are doing is making it harder and harder to stay at a regional. They are trying to push you up or out. It is one more way to get the DCI costs down.

The rest of Europe couldn't lend aid to England in the early 40's when the Battle of Britain was raging, because they were getting the crap kicked out of them too.

Comair has taken MORE than its fair share of beatings at the hands of Delta's bankruptcy, and it's gotten WORSE since.

Can you say the same about mainline Delta? Last I saw, Comair's upgrade times are meeting and in some cases EXCEEDING Delta's...How could Comair possibly help out Delta, when they're sinking themselves?


Reference

Delta
Most junior captain hired: Jul 2000 (MD88/New York)

Comair
Most Junior CVG 70/90 capt: Nov 1999
Most Junior CVG 50 capt: July 1999
Most Junior JFK 50 capt: Dec 2000

And in all honesty, it wouldn't surprise me if Comair's upgrade times are even LONGER now.

This angst against Comair for something the "MEC may or may not have done" in 2003 is ridiculous. It was a crap situation for everyone, and the MEC Chair was a piece of garbage, but he's gone now. Why do the hard feeling still remain?

United we stand, divided we fall, last i checked neither RJs nor 777s have parachutes......

This industry is in a flat spin, and this petty bickering over "travel privileges" is absurd. How would ya'll feel if NWA bought you, and let their retirees and parents board before you? Would you say, well..it's their metal..guess i'll call commuter and not get paid for a day or two of my trip, my mortgage payment can wait, and my kids don't need to eat.

I'm not disagreeing with mainline having priority on mainline airplanes, DOH between regionals and mainline guys on DL metal is silly. All we're saying is S3 on our own planes (equal with mainline guys..fine), and at least S3b on mainline, there's no reason Ma and Pa Delta should bump Joe Schmoe FO and Jane Doe FA from CVG - JFK because momma and daddy D are going to Hawaii to celebrate a geriatric luau. Must we remind ya'll that your parents never worked for Delta...so why should THEY have priority over a COMMUTING PILOT.

Teams aside, we all should be fighting the same battle..and it shouldn't be this.

Because people won't let it die. How many times in ops have you heard some one ranting about Delta. Their are people out there that are ****ed at Delta pilots for some reason about the pass privelages, even though they have nothing to do with it what so ever. Some people have entitlement issues.

It will continue until people grow up and start acting like adults and quit pointing the finger at the other side an blaming all of their problems on them.

It is the 2-3% (either side) that keep the hard feelings fresh.

Well sort of... Your company (including your union) gave that flying away by choice..... yes the brand is there but nothing else. It's like Coke whining about poor product being made by a franchise bottler. They chose to sell off part of their process so it's not really entirely theirs anymore. Same with airlines.

A little history correction is due here. If this is the case, then why did a number of Delta Furloughees end up at ASA (and the same for NWA furloughees end up at Pinnacle... plus many other regionals) without having to resign their seniority?


The entitlement attitudes of Comair and other DCI carriers forever astounds me. You want mainline privaleges? Get a job at mainline. You are outsourced labor at carriers built as stepping stones, despite what you may assert. Selcall echoes my sentiments exactly in regards to my feelings on what the bennies should be.

It is going to make me happy when that no furlough clause goes away and your selling me paint at Home Depot. How dare you rip on people that were laid off in this industry.

And you would call this what?

Ha Ha. Defending the helpless Comair guys. It's time to just close Comair down for good. The dud was right, every regional job is a direct result of Christmas from mainline. The non-rev seats should be no different. Most Delta guys think that Comair people should also come behind Delta on Comair metal as well.

[quote=INAV8OR;617639]This thread proves to me a few things that I always thought:
1. Most pilots would eat their young if it meant a better life for themselves.
2. If someone isn't pisin and moaning about something, they are not a pilot.
3. Our ALPA, is not a union, it is an association. Meaning that if you are a member of ALPA, you are just associated with it. A union is unified not divided. If our groups worked together and everyone was not out for themselves, this job would have a good future in america.

Boy, do you have that right. Life would be better for everyone if all flying was under mainline. It's time for some scope to get reeled in and the union to act like one.

I'm furloughed Comair. It sure gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling about this industry when I read posts such as this from my ALPA 'brothers'.

I'm not asking for pitty but some tact would be nice.

I wasn't at Comair at the time, but why did Delta pay almost $2 BILLION for Comair? I think it was because Delta was afraid of what the company was capable of. I just don't understand why Delta, (our ALPA brothers) dont care where we are coming from with this benefit change. We DON'T want priority on your flights. We just want to be ahead of retirees and family members when we are trying to get to our job as commuters. (Bye the way, out of all the employee groups effected by this new change, we are the only group to take concessions!)

Tell that little rant to all of our guys that got stranded there when DFW closed, to all the Republic (the old Republic) guys when ATL was closed...and many others.

This career is a strange and twisting road. Live with it, make the best of it, or get out.

WOW!!! Another reason I enjoy paying my union dues!:eek:

First of all, I get booted from these boards for less offensive comments than this selcall jerk and his is still up... ridiculous.

To you selcall...
your comments are exactly whats wrong with this industry. first, you had to start somewhere. second, don't think you are all high and mighty just because you fly for a major. i respect the work you put in to get there, but dont bash us that are just trying to squeak out a living to get there. last time im fairly certain they arent going to fly an md88 from memphis to ft. smith arkansas that is why we have regional carriers, obviously you missed that somewhere along your "journey." I have flown on many carriers in their jumpseat coming back from vacation or going to work who were a lot more respectful of us than you have been on this board. I dont agree with what our union has done but im furloughed and dont really have a say in that. Dont lump us in with everything else that has happened. you have obviously shown your ignorance or should i say arrogance with your comments on here. it would be better for us if you went and jump off a building you "old codger"

*Deleted* I had nothing nice to say.

You know, it took this thread a little less than 3 pages to digress to name calling and accusations. With all this "unity" we have as pilots, I can't really fault those that only look out for themselves in this industry. I mean really, can't we all just get along???????? Lets hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

I am going to try to address a couple of things about this forum. Please understand that it's nothing personal but needs to be said. I cannot speak for all of us at mainline nor would I ever want to but here is a prevailing sentiment you will find with a lot of us "Mainline Pilots".

1. I am not your union brother nor will I ever be. If you are not flying an airplane with a prop on it that seats 34 people or less then your very job is a detriment to my professional survival in this industry. The 50 seat, 76 seat, 86 seat, 70 seat, etc...regional jet is an infestation within this industry that I cannot stand. While I spent many a dark night flying those things in a previous life I decided to jump into the abyss and now sit on the other side of the fence. While you may protest that we have similar issues with management and so forth I find the wrench of entitlement (that I see from many on this board) vile and without merrit. It's like being a AAA baseball player guys. Sure you might have a lot of prospects looking at you and sure the men from the big show might buy you a beer every now and then but until you get sent up you will never be my "Brother" in this industry. Your very existence, while many argue is essential to the Airline industry, is a complete contradiction to my own betterment in this profession.

I personally and many I talk to could care less about how it sucks your family cannot get back from SFO to ATL via SLC because of all our "Mainline" employees happen to be out there also and keep bumping you from flights. Guess what, the same thing happens to all of us "mainline" guys with our families and even on our commutes to work. We deal with it, make alternate plans or even buy a ticket if we know we have to be there. We plan ahead as much as possible, show our due dilligence in trying to get to work, and then move on. Try doing it yourself.

2. I and many of my fellow pilots have been more than happy in the past to give up the jumpseat, take an FA seat if available to assist many a regional pilot to work. Even though he screwed up, never left himself a backup because the girlfriend was in town last night, yada yada yada I am always obligatory and help out wherever I can. I will continue to do so because it's the right thing to do.

Stringer: Tact and patience is something many of us do not have on this board any more for the constant complaining about how "Big Brother Management" is making life so hard on your fellow pilots at the regionals.

I am not trying to be triffling but please if this job is that bad then please go to Home Depot and find gainful employment, leave the nasty business of flying to us old codgers, and learn how to help me when I come to Home Depot and ask about a good groundcover perrenial for a full sun area.

I and many I talk to are tired of the constant whining about the loss of privileges and the audacious sense of entitlement we hear from the newest or youngest generation of pilots hand picked to spend $64,000.00 to learn how to fly a regional jet in a simulator.

I do not want the closet you call a crew room either as some on this board have suggested.

For someone who benefited from flying the 'infestation' of 50-76 seat jets to get enough hours to get a job at mainline, you have an awful amount of negative things to say about your own roots.