Get a grip and put the crack pipe down...It clearly is talking about working for less than union wages at the company the person works for NOT the other company! We all would be considered scabs since most CBA's don't equally compare to others.

Are RAH pilots currently in negotiations?

Those types of contracts typically include non-competition clauses.
RAH will get dropped.... but by the looks of it.... they can combine Frontier and Midwest into a nice little big airplane airline doing the long haul for all their feeder regionals...

Lets see how RAH does when they have to run an airline...not a fee for departure service. Airlines have reservations, marketing, and corporate sales. They do market research to determine their routes, they don't have a daddy to tell them where to fly. It did not work out so well for Indy or ExpressJet. Sure, F9 and Midwest are real airlines, but we will see how motivated their employees are when they get their pay haircut. This is no sure thing. Could be brilliant, could be just another flash in the pan. It certainly confuses the relationship of RAH and the legacies. JMHO.

As well as an agreement with Continental signed a month or two ago.

Yes they are. Hopefully they will be able to negotiate at least JetBlue wages.

HA..........

I had a nice long response written, but then I thought better of it for both my reputation on this board and my overall sanity.

But in a nutshell - my eyes are open Saab; having an outsider's perspective provides clarity and objectivity. The real question is are your eyes open?

Would you rather have bleeding airlines continue to bleed to the point of death, or would you rather have those airlines bought (even by a company you've loathed since they "took your flying") and allowed to continue surviving, providing gainful employment to those pilots (your professional colleagues & union brothers) who can work with and strengthen the current RAH pilot group to get a new CBA with compensation and work rules worthy of all involved parties?

And believe me, I'm not preaching.

not surprised by this, now curious to see what RAH does with the seniority list and fleet

The fleet is grounded.

Boiler,

Do you honestly believe that the "integrated" RAH will earn fair and comparable wages for the MEH flying? It will not happen. Please prove me wrong, RAH Pilots...

Oh, please, the queston is wether or not Fronteir or Midwest will be a place thats worth having around anyway............."gainful employment", I am sure thats what F9, and Midwest gusy are thinking right now. I don't LOATHE anyone for "TAKING CAL'S FLYING"...............

Yep...I'm glad they'll be gainfully employed for half their previous pay :rolleyes:

What about the MEH furloughs? Will they be coming back into the integration? What does this do to the bottom of RAH's current list...

There's no choice. Any new aircraft introduced to RAH will have to have new wages negotiated for. If wages can't be negotiated then the aircraft are not flown. There's no reason that the RAH pilot group would vote for ANY pay concessions. We are a money making machine. At worst the aircraft would be operated at their current established rates.

Which, if considering the E-190/beyond, are uncceptable.

Wait until you have to renew your contracts with mainline. Enjoy it while you can, it will come to an end. I highly doubt your mainline partners wanting to provide $$$ to a company that they compete with or, in line with Xjet, support.

Yes, I do. I also think they'll get fair wages for Frontier, also.

RAH pilots know they are underpaid (FOs especially). They know their contract is weak in many areas. They also know their growth has pretty much stopped, and they'll likely start contracting even after this M&A activity. Additionally, RAH pilots have known many folks in the airline business don't like them (mostly regional pilots), but with the info from the last two days they've now they've got a gazillion-watt spotlight shining on them, with everybody in the industry watching.

Many pilots (especially the FOs!) at RAH know the growth and fast upgrades are over. They know Bedford wants out of the 50 seat business; they've known it for some time. They also know with each 70+ seat airplane flown by them is one fewer airplane providing jobs at a major airline.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some tools over there that are jumping for joy and salivating about flying an Airbus, and probably an idiot or two there screaming "staple" like a drunken idiot.

But this time, unlike 2003, RAH pilots have all the leverage in the world - the ability to destroy shareholder value in RAH, the one thing Bedford seems to worship as much as God. And they'll have a bunch of ****ed-off Midwest and Frontier pilots, if willing, to help them exercise that leverage for all its worth.

Yes, I have faith that RAH pilots will get a fair wage for the E190 airframe, and that there won't be pilots flying Airbusses around lower than the current F9 rates. Will the E190 wage match current book MEH or Jetblue? I don't know...but there is no reason whatsoever to not get rates in line with their narrowbody peers for the larger airframes (and a corresponding raise down the line).

For better or worse, many current RAH pilots will end their airline careers at RAH pilots...and I think more know that than are willing to admit it. As such, they've no reason whatsoever to accept anything less than a fair CBA.

Boiler, how would you like it if the boss said he was selling the CJ2 to another outfit who was going to provide gainful employment by staffing the plane with college interns flying for minimum wage. You still had a job, but it will be brought down to their level. Should you be thankful you are still "gainfully employed", that you will be able to provide guidance to help the interns spend years trying to get back to where you were before only to have the normal cost of living leave you in the dust? If you think jobs are protected here, they are I guess in theory, but what outside of a Captain and FO position is protected?

I am disgusted by the mainline MECs who through their arrogance and shortsightedness allowed these deals to be codified and mainline money spent to allow these deals to occur. This is like a cancer that is spreading from the limbs to the organs now. It will be only to short before this "opportunity" comes knocking at a mainline door near you. UAL, LCC, DAL, AMR, CAL, the question is who is next?????

"Fair" Integration
 

As a Frontier pilot I am curious what Republic pilots’ would consider a fair integration. I realize this is a loaded question, but I would love to here what others consider fair. As an Airbus Captain I would like to retain my seat, my aircraft, my base, and my pay. Is that acceptable to those of you at Republic?

AB don't go jumping to conclusions. There's no reason for them to accept any concessions. At least the current rates would stay.

As far as seniority list goes this will be a hard process to hash out. Don't get me wrong I feel for both pilot groups but it was their airlines that ended ended up failing. Midex and Frontier would both have vanished a while back had they not acquired additional funding from RAH. These airlines are not being merged they are being bought. There's no reason that I should lose my % place to someone from another failing airline. If that's the case I'd rather them be cut lose and allowed to fail on their own. Just my personal opinions but "fair and equitable" to me is not tripling the amount of time it will be before I upgrade.

I don't know how the integration will go, but that would be acceptable to me as a RAH pilot. I would hope that there would be fences in place to protect all of the above.

There ya go...now we see where Chance's concern really is......

Absolutely. The most fair, to me, would be a TWA style integration in the sense that overall company seniority might be low however you'd retain your seniority in base in your aircraft at your position. The only time this would ever be an issue is if you were to transfer to another base. Completely my opinion and not that of anyone else at my company but it would keep those in Den in their aircraft and bidding wherever it is they bid in base. There are TWA FO's coming off furlough in STL that might be bottom of the list but they bid at the top for lines.

haha Toilet, do you really think the TWA guys made out? Why don;t you go ask them how they feel about a "TWA style integration"

Should my concern be something else? I pay union dues for this reason. I'm not here for charity I'm here to work my way up the rungs. I don't consider it fair if 1000 pilots join our seniority list yet we keep native RAH guys on the street. If we were being purchased I wouldn't expect someone to say "Here take my seniority spot I feel bad for you". I have responsibilities to myself first. Times are tough for us all.

While that would suck tremendously, that would be my owner's prerogative; he doesn't owe me anything other than a paycheck and I don't owe him anything other than my services...especially if that's how my loyalty to him were to be repaid.

If the situation you describe were to arise (it wouldn't, but the threat of the "I'll do it for less" pilot is always present in bizav) then I would be free to take my services elsewhere, who will compensate me at a level I am willing to accept. That portability is a big difference between the business aviation segment and the airline segment of the industry.

But, seeing as how I have financial obligations I'd likely accept the lower-paying position for as long as I needed to have it to pay my mortgage until I could find better employment. In the mean time, I'd try to help the kids learn as much as possible so that they don't kill themselves or the passengers or break the airplane. I'd also take the opportunity to educate them (brainwash, if you will) about the industry and what I/they should be getting compensated, and once I got them on my side (I can be a persuasive bastard) we'd stand together and demand what we all were really worth for our services. Of course we might get fired for it...but if you risk nothing you stand to gain nothing and I'd be in the same position I could have been in when Mr. Big sold the airplane in the first place.

Not much I suppose...but jobs protected are jobs protected and that isn't theory. At least this situation, as crappy as it may be, gives MEH pilots the ability to have something - before they had nothing. They can choose to accept it or not, but that will be their choice...a choice they wouldn't have had after a Chapter 7 liquidation or the 717s being returned to Boeing.

If only we could wind the clock back to 1991, eh?

Oh but its for for a FRONTIER Airbus FO to be junior to one of your 600hr guys on the street? Get real.

Even if you are now upgrading at a career airline?

With as much DEBT that Bedford is putting on Republic....BK is a very real possibility for them. I don't think anyone on here realizes how bad this can be.
They will be crushed when they go to compete against any of the Major airlines....and yes, AirTran too will hand them their winglet.

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You're wrong. Bedford even said on WTMJ today that this was a "merger". A relative % merger is the most fair in most eyes I would hope (this coming from someone near the bottom at Midwest), with a fence regarding bases as I do not want to commute to BUF. That's the best I can wish for. All I know is we have a merger fund and attorneys will be hired for us.

I never said that. I've never mentioned staple. I don't think anyone should be expecting a 1 to 1 ratio. I'm in favor of a TWA style integration as mentioned earlier. I don't expect any bought airline to expect an even integration. They can keep their seniority in base on current aircraft but have a low seniority on the overall list.

Why? Because the second they hit our seniority list they are afforded the luxuries it provides us. Once they are on our seniority list they could furlough next day and several of our pilot are now the street that shouldn't been. We have due paying members in our airline that I think it's the responsibility of the company and union to look after first. 1000 pilots join our seniority list but we only need 500 and instead of furloughing out of that batch we're now putting a pile of our own out there.

There's nothing merger about it. Midwest has been bought and paid for. It's debts and liabilities will be taken over by RAH. There's no merging. It's a new subsidiary for now. A relative % is bull. Someone 50% in your company coming in at 50% in ours is not going to happen. So after more of the 717's leave you think a "flowback" to displace RAH captains to the right seat is fair for us? Nope. I remember you saying several times that you've hoped RAH would fail and that you'd quit before working here. Start packing. You've done nothing but insult after insult and if you think I care at all about the commute you're going to have you're sadly mistaken.

Chance, your making RAH pilots look very very bad, how about a little "humble pie", I would venture to say these guys at Frontier and Midwest have been flying 121 long before your hard-on for Shiney planes

This is how I see all of this playing:

Step one:

BB meets with UA and and renews the 50 flying, and might get more depending on how Mesa turns out, in exchange for removing UA competition in Denver (F9). United is happy and RAH has more contract flying.

Step 2:

BB goes to big daddy D and offers the F9 fleet for next to nothing in cash in exchange for the 36 175's at compass. DL is heavy on Wholly owned carriers and would be happy to burn Compass' cert. and sell/trade their planes to RAH. Delta contracts with RAH to operate the 36 175's out of MKE using all the assets (gates/slots) just aquired from Midwest. Delta instructs RAH to fend off Airtran out of MKE and RAH does it for cheap. (Delta does not care about Southwest in MKE, Southwest will to and from the west and DL will fly to and from the east.) Now DL is happy because they keep the "thorn in their side" (Airtran) from gaining ground in MKE, They got a 40+ Airbus fleet for cheap and one less Wholly owned to deal with. And...RAH has more 175's and more flying.


Everything I just said is just a way to make a point. People have said many times that the legacys are going to be upset about this. BB is a lot of things but dumb is not one of them. Do you think he made these deals, and tonight when he is brushing his teeth its going to hit him and he'll say.. uh oh...Delta might not like this???

I am one of those people who thinks there is something much bigger going on here. DL and UA are both in a position to benifit from all of this. I am not so sure that they were not FULLY aware of this before it happened and maybe "on board" with it.

I am mad/afraid.

RAH STILL sucks. Now I want a staple of the Duck below all. I still hope RAH fails, what makes you think that's changed?

EVERY seat in the MKE and MCI domicile (MCI by percentage on Midwest ASM's versus total Republic ASM's in MCI) should be for 400 Midwest pilots FIRST. The same can be said for DEN wrt to F9 pilots.

Your career expectations at this point is all those 70/50 seaters and 2 E-190's (15 of which and 2 190's built off of cheap labor replacing our flying).

I agree, good points

I've gone completely out of my way by stating these are my opinions and not shared by anyone. It's not that I don't appreciate the situation but I came here for a reason and it wasn't to watch my position as an FO only get worse because we acquired a failing airline. In other words my life should not get worse or stagnate because another management ran their company into the ground. I've paid dues here since day one to protect my job stability, my rights for employment, and my place within the company. "Humble Pie" is picking up two pilots group and them flying their same airframes, maintaining their current seniority in base, and keeping them at their same payrates. If that's not a helping hand I don't know what is.

Not to point out the obvious, but this would appear to apply to you as well, at this point.

(I understand your hostility, but the humor regarding the size of aircraft and long-term career with your integration into RAH was amusing).