Goodbye 717, Hello E190

http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_12675571

As far as I am concerned, these guys should be glad their company isn't just shutting its doors. Therefore, if they are stapled to the bottom of the list (which is exactly what should happen) they should be grateful just to have a job. Why should the RAH guys be penalized by losing seniority because this company was failing and were bailed out?

I guess it is up to them - is it worth it to get paid a little less and still have a job, or just walk away because they have to much pride to fly a "small" jet. Give me a break...

You have a lot of learning to do if you think you're guaranteed anything by paying dues.

"get paid a little less?" YGTBSM

See earlier post about "WE BOUGHT YOU"

He has a lot to learn, period ! :)

Your CEO (soon to be mine) may know the price of everything but he knows the value of nothing. You can't "buy" a sevice culture and morale really does mean something. A fact that the MBA bean counters will never understand, although there is one that once said "You CAN make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it".

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PM me the story, please, please, please. I need verification of what I thought all along.;)

Toilet's reputation is collapsing just as quickly as our industry.....................

On another side note, the F9 work rules are some of the best in the industry. They can manipulate their schedules in ways you only dream about. That is why their rates are lower then CAL, SWA, JB

Everyone's an expert

(cue circus music and "little people" in clown suits)

And your FO scale equals RAH CA in what? 3 years?

I don't know about the the DCA thing, but he did post on here about how he flew a completely unstable approach in a Metro (or something like that), then go mad because people criticized him for it. It was pretty funny.

They pay dues from day 1

I hope you are too proud to work at RAH, because I don't want to work with someone that's too proud for thier own good. If its not good enough for you. Walk away. It's never going to be good enough for you. Midwest was run into the ground by your management. Everyone that worked there had at least some responsibility in that.

So if Midwest and Frontier pilots are at least somewhat responsible for their airline's collapse does that also make you somewhat responsible for allowing E-190s to be flown for such abominable wages? Or was that before your time and not your fault?

It was before my time. And it is my fault since I decided to work here. (I guess if you think of it that way) We are in negotiations though. Those rates will be higher.

Ding ding ding....Weee have a winner here.

Or you could have had a scope clause, not allowing this to happen in the first place. Then we wouldn't have to worry about RAH. Midwest wouldn't exist anymore.

Or was that whole scope clause thing before your time?

The scope thing is a non-issue. Frontier will get its contract taken apart by the bankruptcy judge. In the end, airline management finds a way around scope one way or another. My point is that we can blame pilots for all this but in the end its the managers of the airlines that steer the course and we're, for the most part, just along for the ride.

The only way pilots will be paid well is if the economics of the airlines change. Whether on its own (global economics, customer tastes) or through legislation (abolish RLA, pilot minimum wage, etc). Unions have some power over this, like Continental, but for the most part if management has the incentive they'll find a way. Just ask any CAL pilot how their scope worked with the Q400s.

I don't work for Midwest.

What happened to the good old days? When a major goes under, another major takes over. Not a damn regional.

Those good old boys, working in the good old days, sold us all out. They got thiers, gave up scope, and now regionals are more powerful than some majors. Thank them.

Are you one of those pilots that are afraid if they are paid too much they will put the company out of business, 'cause if your attitude is the norm at Repubic then your contract negotiations are over already.

I'd like to see industry leading rates. I never said I wouldn't. All I said is that people should take some responsibility and stop blaming others (especially other pilot groups). As for the norm at Republic, where do you get your information? From here? How many of the 2000 pilots there do you talk to with a roll over and take it attitude? Or are you just assuming as usual?

We all know staples are against the law now anyway but I ask you... Let's say Southwest bought Frontier instead of Republic... would you expect to be given some sort of preference being brought onto Southwest's list? It would seem to me that would be a windfall for career progression, you just went from a failing bankrupt airline to Southwest.... the only issue here really is the supposed difference between a regional and a major and the arrogance that a major pilot deserves a spot ahead of a regional guy basically just because. Now don't get me wrong, I want there to be majors with good pay for everyone to aspire to... but the basic issue here really is that seniority ISN'T portable like any other industry. Using any other industry as a model a 20 year veteran IS worth more than a 2 year veteran, he can send his resume to other companies and get a wage reflecting his greater experience. In the airlines, if you left Midwest or Frontier for Southwest or Delta or wherever .... you AREN'T worth more than a 1 yr veteran. That's the unfortunate system that is the airlines, if we think that's unfair (and I do) then maybe we need to figure out how to fix it, in the mean time I guess any seniority Midwest or Frontier guys got at Republic beyond a staple would be bonus... I'm sorry that it's regional seniority.

While the issue hasn't been brought up in this thread, a lot of people have talked about the benefits of one national seniority list. If that were the case, everything would be DOH integration, right? It wouldn't matter who bought who or whether it was a merger or not, right? So as a mildly amused observer of this thread, I'd suggest DOH is the most fair/unfair to everyone. After all, if there was one list across the board, that would be the result.

Sure. The 300 furloughees, some of whom were $150 an hour Capts. last year will be essentially new hire F/Os when RAH recalls them.

Or less (see above).

Let me add that I'm not slamming RAH pilots. As some have mentioned, the pilots didn't have a say in this decision. We all need to wait and see how the new pay rates end up.

May not be a done deal yet...from deltanet:

"Republic Airways Holdings of Indianapolis has announced plans to buy Denver-based Frontier Airlines and Milwaukee-based Midwest Airlines, news media reported.

In an announcement Tuesday, Republic said it will purchase Delta codeshare partner Midwest from TPG Capital, a Texas investment firm. The sale would end 25 years of local control for the largest airline to fly out of Milwaukee’s Mitchell International Airport.

Under terms of the acquisition, Republic will pay $31 million – $6 million in cash and a $25 million, five-year note convertible to Republic stock. Midwest will become a wholly owned subsidiary and will continue to operate as a branded carrier.

Republic also will buy Frontier in a proposal that would help that carrier emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Under terms of the deal announced Monday, Frontier will become a wholly owned subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings after the company serves as the equity sponsor for Frontier’s reorganization plan and buys 100% of the equity in the reorganized company. The cost to Republic will be nearly $109 million. The deal would require a court-supervised auction, at which another buyer could outbid Republic.

Republic Airways Holdings operates Delta Connection carriers Chautauqua Airlines and Shuttle America as well as Republic Airlines. Those airlines offer scheduled passenger service on about 1,200 flights daily to 101 cities in 37 states, Canada and Mexico through airline services agreements with seven U.S. airlines, including Midwest."


For Frontier pilots sake, hope there's another bidder!

I think I was asking you a question? Is that the attitude at Repubic?

Let's see,

DOH? = RAH pilots get screwed

Age? = RAH pilots get screwed

Flying time? = RAH pilots get screwed

Jet time? = RAH pilots get screwed

Jet Time over 100,00#? = RAH pilots get screwed

OK, how about turboprop time? = RAH pilots still screwed

Time in a non-standard holding pattern picking up ice? = RAH pilots are STILL screwed

So the only logical conclusion is, screw the Frontier and Midex guys :)

Whaddaya know, relative seniority doesn't "screw" anybody...

Midwest Pilots paid dues. You see how it worked out for them. You guys are in for a VERY NASTY RIDE. All I can say is Good Luck.

I know, because the NWA/DAL pilots who moved BACKWARDS 3 years in seniority didn't get hosed by relative seniority at all. It doesn't work.

Someone ALWAYS gets screwed by relative seniority.

Why would anyone want to be senior to their relatives?:p

Yes, & as a result MANY guys who were holding 767 CA in JFK can hold nothing better then MD80 CA in STL or 767 FO in JFK. Some even fell off 767 CA all the way back to MD80 FO. It was a horrible staple job, & the fence around STL is a joke because AMR turned STL into a ghost town. A small percentage of AA Mainline flying remains in STL, most of it taken over by RJs. Personally, if RAH pilots don't have access to equivalent size equipment to F9 pilots @ time of purchase then they shouldn't have access to that equipment period.

But if it were the other way around, and Frontier were purchasing RAH, you wouldn't have any problems with furloughing RAH guys to your seat would you..... works both ways my friend.

Are you ready to take responsibilty if your pilot group fails to get industry leading wages? Will YOU be ready to stop blaming others? Be prepared to eat your own words IF you & your pilot group fails the rest of the industry.

I don't work for Frontier, so no, it DOESNT work both ways. Just ask yourself how YOU would feel if RAH bought Eagle & knocked you out of YOUR seat.

Why? Either way it will not work out in Frontier pilots favor.

You bet, so why not hope to be bought up by a major instead? None of the Frontier pilots I know want to be a part of republic. The question is, is there a major airline willing to jump on this firesale during a bad economy? Probably not. I'm just hoping we(DAL) find a way to dump Republic then bring Compass onto our list, maybe that's wishful thinking?? Good luck to the Frontier and Midwest pilots.