look at our future
07-02-2009, 12:59 PM
#32
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 48
Here is some food for thought.
What is the difference between the airline industry of 20 years ago and the airline industry of today?
20 years ago you had major airlines and you had commuter airlines. The commuter airlines were created to feed small loads of passengers to the major hubs of major carriers. Commuter airlines were never intended to be a career destination for most people and were viewed strictly as places to build time and move on.
20 years ago you didn't fly three hours on a regional jet because they were not around. What is currently served by a regional jet operated by a regional airline today was served by a mainline DC-9 or 737 (or larger in some cases) then.
Bottom line is this: the regionals were never designed to become career destinations for the average pilot. The reason many people are staying longer at a regional is not completely due to unions or management, but more so due to the current business model of the airline industry. And because of the way the regionals are set up and operated (read: low cost), it is impossible to turn those jobs into what they used to be 20 years ago with the majors.
What is the difference between the airline industry of 20 years ago and the airline industry of today?
20 years ago you had major airlines and you had commuter airlines. The commuter airlines were created to feed small loads of passengers to the major hubs of major carriers. Commuter airlines were never intended to be a career destination for most people and were viewed strictly as places to build time and move on.
20 years ago you didn't fly three hours on a regional jet because they were not around. What is currently served by a regional jet operated by a regional airline today was served by a mainline DC-9 or 737 (or larger in some cases) then.
Bottom line is this: the regionals were never designed to become career destinations for the average pilot. The reason many people are staying longer at a regional is not completely due to unions or management, but more so due to the current business model of the airline industry. And because of the way the regionals are set up and operated (read: low cost), it is impossible to turn those jobs into what they used to be 20 years ago with the majors.
07-06-2009, 07:46 AM
#34
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 31
How about everybody serves one day per week of reserve? Just part of the schedule. Solves the problem of the most junior and inexperienced person getting no flying, and having no life.
A typical 3 or 4 day trip could have the last day on reserve. BTW, the rest of the world already figured that out.
A typical 3 or 4 day trip could have the last day on reserve. BTW, the rest of the world already figured that out.
07-06-2009, 11:06 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 747
...But at least partially incorrect.
The problem is the Railway Labor Act.
We are covered by a peice of legislation, unique to airline and railway workers, that regards self-help as a criminal action. The provisions of the RLA are obsolete and creates a lot of stagnation and damage to our negotiating process.
Why do you think the starting pay of a 250h wonder in Europe is 2-3 times higher as compared to the U.S.? It's not because they have fewer applicants or higher regulatory minimums.
The major difference is that they aren’t held back by government regulations. Our inability to strike unless the company is in blatant disregard of their contract is a huge obstacle to union leverage.
Why do you think we have such a hard time negotiating a good contract? Because unlike the rest of the union-negotiated-contacts in the U.S. ours have no expiration dates as per the RLA. In comparison the NLRA states 3 years or as negotiated in the contract. Rules such as the “grieve it and fly later” is also an inbuilt roadblock to self help.
The outcome is this:
What happens if the pilots of the Scandinavian Airlines System are in strong disagreement with the company? They set the parking brake!
What happens if the pilots of a US carrier are in disagreement with their company?
The fly it and grieve it = nothing!
Remember, the company is always going to get their way under the RLA. All it takes is a good lawyer. Look at Republic. Their scope states that republic owned aircraft must be flown by republic pilots. But somehow that clause is going to be circumvented by selling off 51%. If the pilots at RAH weren't covered by the RLA they would have the opportunity to do as any violated labor group and say: no way, we set the brake until you [RAH] do what’s right!
We don't need scope clauses, commuter rules or other legal shields because they can be busted and circumvented in almost any case. What we need is the freedom that the rest of this country is taking granted, the freedom to stand up for ourselves and ensure fairness and decency is taking place. Changing this piece of regulation is not an act of agression towards the airlines, it levels the play field. The removal of the RLA will put the airlines with the worst working conditions at risk. This could assist the passing of such airlines and provide the better contestants with an opportunnity for growth.
Rant over...
The problem is the Railway Labor Act.
We are covered by a peice of legislation, unique to airline and railway workers, that regards self-help as a criminal action. The provisions of the RLA are obsolete and creates a lot of stagnation and damage to our negotiating process.
Why do you think the starting pay of a 250h wonder in Europe is 2-3 times higher as compared to the U.S.? It's not because they have fewer applicants or higher regulatory minimums.
The major difference is that they aren’t held back by government regulations. Our inability to strike unless the company is in blatant disregard of their contract is a huge obstacle to union leverage.
Why do you think we have such a hard time negotiating a good contract? Because unlike the rest of the union-negotiated-contacts in the U.S. ours have no expiration dates as per the RLA. In comparison the NLRA states 3 years or as negotiated in the contract. Rules such as the “grieve it and fly later” is also an inbuilt roadblock to self help.
The outcome is this:
What happens if the pilots of the Scandinavian Airlines System are in strong disagreement with the company? They set the parking brake!
What happens if the pilots of a US carrier are in disagreement with their company?
The fly it and grieve it = nothing!
Remember, the company is always going to get their way under the RLA. All it takes is a good lawyer. Look at Republic. Their scope states that republic owned aircraft must be flown by republic pilots. But somehow that clause is going to be circumvented by selling off 51%. If the pilots at RAH weren't covered by the RLA they would have the opportunity to do as any violated labor group and say: no way, we set the brake until you [RAH] do what’s right!
We don't need scope clauses, commuter rules or other legal shields because they can be busted and circumvented in almost any case. What we need is the freedom that the rest of this country is taking granted, the freedom to stand up for ourselves and ensure fairness and decency is taking place. Changing this piece of regulation is not an act of agression towards the airlines, it levels the play field. The removal of the RLA will put the airlines with the worst working conditions at risk. This could assist the passing of such airlines and provide the better contestants with an opportunnity for growth.
Rant over...
Last edited by Joachim; 07-06-2009 at 11:21 AM.
07-06-2009, 11:18 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 307
One thing I have noticed from talking to those that have been in the biz for 25-30 years is that a lot have something going on the side to pad their wallets and protect themselves from a nasty industry. Some examples of people I know: Importing rare cars from overseas for customers, realestate agent (maybe not so good anymore), sim instuctor for another company, aircraft detail business, and personally I have a small photography.
What I'm saying is that our schedules allow us to diversify our talents and split our eggs between a couple different baskets. Even in a down economy there is money to be made.
Oh and I've always been a fan of flat rates based on aircraft seats. If you're qualified you're qualified and you get paid for the job you are doing.
What I'm saying is that our schedules allow us to diversify our talents and split our eggs between a couple different baskets. Even in a down economy there is money to be made.
Oh and I've always been a fan of flat rates based on aircraft seats. If you're qualified you're qualified and you get paid for the job you are doing.
07-06-2009, 11:47 AM
#38
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 48
What has to be done to relieve ourselves from the railway labor Act?
I would be fine with a flat rate of pay based on your aircraft plus profit sharing.
Large gaps in pay for doing the same task really is saying i want two divided groups doing the same task.
I would be fine with a flat rate of pay based on your aircraft plus profit sharing.
Large gaps in pay for doing the same task really is saying i want two divided groups doing the same task.
07-07-2009, 03:49 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 747
[email protected]
or Fax (202) 224-1193
07-08-2009, 09:45 AM
#40
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: Chautauqua
Posts: 22
Were not in the situation were in because we like the work we do. If that was true, more interesting jobs would pay less. Thats not how the world works.
The reason why we seem to be moving backwards when everyone else is moving forward is the fact that we are covered under a peice of legislation unique to the airlines and railways which severely restricts our negotiating powers. That is why airline management can push us around like they do. If we carried a big gun in our belt (read: ability to strike) we wouldn't be pushed around. Wouldn't it be wonderfull if you could "set the brake" the next time your airline furloughs out of seniority, stalls you contract negotiations or worse?
Airline Pilots continue to work under deteriorating conditions because they don’t have a choice. Their hands are tied under the Railway Labor Act. In practical terms, airline pilots cannot strike airline management is well aware of that. Therefore, in times of economic growth, it is in the best interest of the airline negotiators to stall and maintain status quo. It is near impossible to improve the overall conditions of the pilot groups because of the RLA. Major changes happen when people die in plane crashes but not when pilots forewarn about unacceptable conditions. Compared to other economically unregulated industries that are covered by the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), the employees of the airline industry have very little leverage. The RLA prevents employees from engaging in self help, carries no provisions for unfair labor practices, and contracts have no set expiration dates. These three major differences cause unionized airline employees to be at an unfair disadvantage when compared to the rest of the population. In addition, the “fly now grieve later” rule allows the schedulers to force pilots to complete tasks that may be against their contract.
The effects of the RLA became particularly obvious after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 where pilot groups accepted supposedly temporary pay cuts to keep their companies in business. In the subsequent years, airlines became profitable, however, the pilot groups did not have enough leverage to regain any lost territory in a timely fashion. Before any progress was made, the economic cycle had turned around and threats of furloughs and additional outsourcing to cheaper subcontractors deterred further progress in negotiation.
The restricting elements of the RLA, preventing pilot groups from engaging in self-help need to be amended to reflect those of the NRLA. An even better solution would be to free the airline employees from the RLA altogether and treat the airline industry as the deregulated industry it is and place it under the laws of the NRLA. If the government sees a need to use aviation as a public utility, it should be completely regulated and subsidized as such. Otherwise, aviation should be treated as an industry in its own right and unionized airline employees should have the same self-help rights as the majority of the population. Release the airline employees from the Railway Labor Act.
The reason why we seem to be moving backwards when everyone else is moving forward is the fact that we are covered under a peice of legislation unique to the airlines and railways which severely restricts our negotiating powers. That is why airline management can push us around like they do. If we carried a big gun in our belt (read: ability to strike) we wouldn't be pushed around. Wouldn't it be wonderfull if you could "set the brake" the next time your airline furloughs out of seniority, stalls you contract negotiations or worse?
Airline Pilots continue to work under deteriorating conditions because they don’t have a choice. Their hands are tied under the Railway Labor Act. In practical terms, airline pilots cannot strike airline management is well aware of that. Therefore, in times of economic growth, it is in the best interest of the airline negotiators to stall and maintain status quo. It is near impossible to improve the overall conditions of the pilot groups because of the RLA. Major changes happen when people die in plane crashes but not when pilots forewarn about unacceptable conditions. Compared to other economically unregulated industries that are covered by the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), the employees of the airline industry have very little leverage. The RLA prevents employees from engaging in self help, carries no provisions for unfair labor practices, and contracts have no set expiration dates. These three major differences cause unionized airline employees to be at an unfair disadvantage when compared to the rest of the population. In addition, the “fly now grieve later” rule allows the schedulers to force pilots to complete tasks that may be against their contract.
The effects of the RLA became particularly obvious after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 where pilot groups accepted supposedly temporary pay cuts to keep their companies in business. In the subsequent years, airlines became profitable, however, the pilot groups did not have enough leverage to regain any lost territory in a timely fashion. Before any progress was made, the economic cycle had turned around and threats of furloughs and additional outsourcing to cheaper subcontractors deterred further progress in negotiation.
The restricting elements of the RLA, preventing pilot groups from engaging in self-help need to be amended to reflect those of the NRLA. An even better solution would be to free the airline employees from the RLA altogether and treat the airline industry as the deregulated industry it is and place it under the laws of the NRLA. If the government sees a need to use aviation as a public utility, it should be completely regulated and subsidized as such. Otherwise, aviation should be treated as an industry in its own right and unionized airline employees should have the same self-help rights as the majority of the population. Release the airline employees from the Railway Labor Act.
You are spot on. Every Pilot should read this and then send a letter to their senator and congress man. I am about to send a letter to mine here in Tennessee. One person writing them all doesn't work because they only read stuff from "voters" in their precinct so lets hit them up and change this crap. Please guys/ gals if you want this to change do the same. If you don't then live with it. It only takes a few min. each after you have your letter then just copy and paste to save time. We are in a unique time right now with the recent CO crash and all the legislation they are making to "improve safety".
How about improve it by restructuring it to encourage professionals to stay in the industry rather than push us away. For Christs sake they just gave GM and other failing company's unions the majority of the company when they failed because they were the ones building the cars. But, if an airline fails, a pilot's whole pension is ****ed away and no one seems to care. Its criminal I tell ya. Make's you want to go expat. Its sad when you could do better in this profession in a communist country.
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