From what this new TA sounds like, I would vote it down if I were a Pinnacle pilot. 5 years of fighting for what you deserve and this is all that comes out of it? Vote it down and get ready to strike!

Nice spin. It's concessionary in almost every way.

........and I think it has a pretty good chance of passing.

The split MEC vote simply told management that the leadership is not solidly grounded and weak. On the chance this fails, the MEC will be that much weaker going back against those that have already pegged them as vulnerable.

Not good any way you look at it.

How so? Concessionary means it's less than what you already have. I'm not aware of anything in the TA that's less than what you've already got. Is it as much as you should have gotten? Far from it. But it's not concessionary.

The proposed payrates that were posted over on Flightinfo (if they're accurate) are lower than the Oct. 2008 payrates in the Air Wisconsin 2003 concessionary contract for 50 seat CA & FO...as are the 60+ seat FO payrates.

If you believe that I've got some great ocean-front property in Nebraska to sell you.

This is a concessionary contract and you can't spin it any other way. Anybody that says it's not is either blind, completely oblivious about their own industry, jaded from years of the worst pay/rules in the biz, or they have a hidden agenda. Which are you? Marginal improvements to pay, marginal wordage improvements in other sections, no real concrete QOL improvement for junior folks, and completely folding in other important areas after 5 years of negotiating are concessions. It's 2009 folks not 1999.

You can't conceed something you don't already have...

PCL_128 is most definitely not a person with a hidden agenda.:cool:

And that's why this place fails. You don't get it.

Try to think outside the box for a moment. This TA is bigger than Pinnacle. It's not just about you. It's about every 121 carrier in the USA. The rates and rules in this TA fall below industry average. They conceed to industry average. :eek: Is the light going off for anyone yet?

We're the pilot group that has ranked as the best performing RJ carrier consistantly over the years and you are, in fact, about to vote on a TA that is concessionary to our profession. If you can't agree with that then I'd say you probably have no business voting at all. Our profession needs forward thinking people not, "Well shucks! It's a raise and I hold a line so's I donts cares 'bout dem reserves or junior folks! Reckon I buy me a whole years supply of chew with this chere bonus!"

Exactly.

You can certainly say that the TA doesn't raise the bar. Not even close. But to say that it's concessionary just proves that you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Perhaps you don't understand the scope of the word.

Settle down, francis.

I don't work for Pinnacle; the closest I came to it was riding in the 9E jumpseat many times between IND-PHL when I worked at Air Wisconsin.

I'm not saying that your TA isn't disappointing (haven't seen it), and yeah its detrimental to the industry as a whole that proposed payrates are less than those in a truly concessionary agreement from 2003 (especially when ARW 50 seat FOs have a higher hourly rate than the proposed 60+ seat 9E rates)...but the simple fact is that one cannot conceed that which they don't have.

If you make $70/hr and go to $68/hr, that is a concession. If you have 12 days off and go to 11 days off, that is a concession. If you loosen up scheduling language to the detriment of crewmembers, that is a concession.

Your TA and the details in it might not meet industry average, and it might not meet crewmember expectations, but neither of those make it concessionary if it improves on your current book.

But that's really all semantics; if you don't like it, vote the thing down in flames and lobby your colleagues to do the same thing.

Facts are stubborn little things. Well said, Boiler.

It is all semantics and I'm basing this on a big picture view. If ALPA has no desire to raise the industry up then no, this is not a concessionary contract. If you're talking about this from an industry standpoint then taking a raise from $24 to $31/hour while the rest of the industry enjoys $35 then you've conceeded. So where's the sweet spot in this contract? What great thing did we gain? Yeah... we didn't. It's just pulling the anchor up a bit.

Hopefully it will go down in flames.

Sincerely,

Francis :cool:

While what's been posted here doesn't sound like a concessionary contract it doesn't need to be less pay to be concessionary. Let's say there wasn't a pay raise or a very small one under the definition of concession given here that wouldn't be a concessionary contract. However it would technically be a concession if your pay doesn't at least keep up or out pace inflation.

Let's say in 1970 I got paid $6 an hour but now I get paid $8 an hour, sure on paper it might not look like I got a better contract now but I'd take living in 1970 on $6 an hour over now at $8 an hour any day of the week

that is a great avatar, flyasa lol

Just say no. Anything else is pathetic.

This is ridiculous. You are all arguing about the definition of a word in trying to increase genitalia size by proving who has the right definition of the word. Who the hell cares. The point is that this contract is supposedly below industry standard. Period. It would hurt us all if a subpar contract is voted in.

Just remember this gentlemen and Ladies,

After you read the entire TA, listen to the roadshows put on by the NC on how and why the TA is the way it is, take time to read the entire document, and still feel that the contract is subpar then vote no. If you feel that your pilot group needs to take a stand for contract carriers at a time when your entire company business model and how it conducts business with the Legacy carriers is changing due to the economics of the time and both public and airlines' BOD perception then go for it. But if you do it then I hope you are both tough and strong. You are going to need it.

Your route structure is already covered by both the other DCI carriers and mainline so your impact on the operation will be minimal at best IF You EVER GET RELEASED. Delta will have plenty of advance notice to any work action and be able to initially put one MD-88, DC-9, Airbus on any route you fly. Remember it's their route anyway that you are flying on their flight number so the argument for struck work does not apply. Then if you ever get released all they have to do is keep that flight and change the equipment to a larger airplane to maintain a level of adequate service. Not included ASA and all the other guys flying routes that will not be considered struck work.

I have heard in several conversations and posts that a lot of the FO's would be better working at Home Depot or something than working under a concessionary contract as you call it. Well I would start working on that application as a second option because if you are junior and at 9E and you vote the TA down you might need it.

I wish you the best but a lot of what I have heard on this board is rhetoric and heresay based on mindless talking points from "someone in the know". Good luck but remember to temper your actions with wisdom.

:)

When the TA comes out- read it for yourself. I have many other ALPA regional carrier contracts if you want to compare to the "industry".

Actually, all of that would be considered struck work. Before a strike, an MEC votes to set a date and implement a struck work policy. On the date that is set, a snapshot is taken of all routes that the carrier operates, including frequency and gauge (aircraft size). If, after the strike, any carrier increases its frequency or gauge on the routes that the striking carrier operated, then it is considered struck work. That is why MECs set up strike centers with a call bank. The call bank is used so pilots from other carriers can call in and see if the flight they are operating is struck work. At PCL we were given a number just prior to the Mesaba strike, if you remember, and we were supposed to call in to see if a flight we were operating was on our schedule prior to the cutoff date. If it wasn't, you were supposed to refuse it on the basis of struck work. Mesaba never got to a strike, but the system was in place, and all MECs were notified of the struck work policy well in advance.

for some of us it is concessionary. I'm a 8-9 year CA. I will be making LESS at the new payrate than I would have had my COLA 50 cent or whatever raise for the past 5 years continued to be paid per the old contract. A 2-3 dollar pay raise over 1999 rates does not sit well with me (does not keep up with inflation/cost of living so therefore concessionary)...had the TA been passed 3-4 years ago that might be a different story.

I am losing VAC days

I have NO GAIN to my 401k.

so depending on where you are seniority wise, yes it is concessionary. especially for the middle group...below the top 15% to about the top of the bottom 30%

Fear of bankruptcy, furlough, or complete company liquidation is not an excuse to sign a garbage contract. If any of those things happen, they will happen regardless if our contract is below industry average or at industry average.

If Pinnacle can't afford to operate with acceptable working conditions and pay that at least match our peers then they shouldn't operate at all. I got into this gig accepting the fact that I'd probably be furloughed several times throughout my career. You can conceed to fear if you'd like, but I'm not running around with my tail between my legs. Countless pilot groups have done so in the past and still been furloughed or gone under altogether. Let's just stop the "Sign this or we're out of biz" ignorance.

PCL, I said IF, but how would you REALLY know what happened at closed door meetings? You're not there anymore, and I don't care how many "friends" you still have on the MEC, you have no idea what really happened at a closed door MEC meeting. ALPA made veiled threats to us by saying we'd had our last MCF grant, etc if we voted it down. I would be surprised if the same didn't happen there.

Quite frankly, JP, I don't believe it happened to you, either. I think you're seeing "veiled threats" where none exist, just because you're paranoid about ALPA.

Look! Another mainline pilot making threats! Way to pressure a pilot group into taking a contract that will put downward pressure on all of us... especially YOU! Duh! The DCI contracts hold yours up. The larger the gap between DCI cost and mainline cost, the more incentive DAL has to shift "your" flying to DCI! Duh! You should be ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING for them to get real and reject any "industry average" TA.

Go ahead and fly that struck PCL route with your MD-88 since it's "your" flying. And you quickly will find your name in a little black book. :rolleyes: YES is would be struck work.

Thank you DTW!!!!!

I don't know if you've seen that episode of South Park but that scene where the boys are bargaining with City Wok owner reminds me of how Delta barters with DCI carriers for new flying.

Hey John,
Learn to read. I am not making any vielded threats just my observations. I think that both sides of the situation need to be looked at to make an accurate observation and decision. It is easy for those of us that do not have to live under the contract to say vote no including you.
Are there no downsides to voting no?

Reject the TA and the work may continue with both sides trying to get a deal done or the company can go back and offer true concessionary terms. Perfectly legal and by no means bargaining in bad faith at that point. If I were the company I would open all the sections of the contract that I am not happy with. Scheduling, pay rates etc..and offer exactly what they have now. I mean the pilots continue to have stellar performance for the company and the comapny gets to keep them at current book for another 2 years probably before the company will face a cooling off period. All specualtion of course but still a possiblity just like the company coming back to the table and offering more money if the TA is rejected by the pilot group. It's all fun and games until you have to act on all the pontification that happens on this board and literally put your money where your mouth is.

As to the rest of your comments about my flying I remember now why I had you on my ignore list. Time to put you back on it. :D

Speaking of threats, You making sure my name is in that little black book is laughable. Thanks for the good laugh. I can't wait. If you want PM me and I'll be sure to give you my name and you can start putting it down now. Have a nice day.

To those of you that have to vote on the TA. Good luck and don't worry about John. He'll go back to his hermit hole in a week or so.

I think Selcall is one of the first mainline pilots I have seen on this or any board advocating that a Jet/regional carrier group of pilots sign a mediocre TA. All that is preached on the boards by the mainliners is "you guys at the regionals need more pay and better work rules"... yet this guy seems to be advocating just the opposite.

What I do know is Selcall HATES any and all regional companies and firmly believes they should be stuck flying aircraft no bigger than a Saab.

I do admire Selcall for the fact that at least he does not hide his disdain for regional pilots and their companies. Selcall some time ago stated that he would fly 76 seat jets for a comparable wage to what he is making if the QOL was better... well there in lies the rub....mgt is not gonna pay you the same money to fly a 76 aircraft as it does to fly a 150 seat aircraft....... and thats why we have essentially "B" scale airlines.

Oh and those "struck" routes... Selcall.... will be struck routes mainline cant cover them after the fact... well I guess they could but that would be struck work... no way around it.

I stand corrected then. I thought they could just increase the size of the aircraft and it not be struck work. If that is not the case then I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction.

"National" has done no such thing. Your own leaders at DALPA were the ones that did that. And your current Master Chairman is one of the worst examples of it.

After 5 years I cant believe they even would put a piece of trash like this out. I saw the pay rates last night and they are terrible.. total crap.
The MEC told us on one of the calls that they were ASA + 1$... They are no where near that...
Im making a new sticker instead of MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME... MY MEC LIES TO ME.

Pretty Sad Aye.......When the union leaders are actually working for management....I have said it here before and been chastised, management has no intent on coming to an agreement that is satisfactory for your group PERIOD.

If you pilots dont find another strategy you will be negotiating untill the cows actually produce chocolate milk or Pinnacle is dumped by DL cause daddy Delta isnt going to tolerate labor unrest for much longer...

Better figure away to get rid of those union leaders who are standing in the way of your livelihood....QUICK!!!

All MEM based pilots have a ballot open on crewroom.alpa.org.

I don't think Delta cares. Pinnacle is properly staffed, has the best completion and performance scores, and the lowest cost of any DCI airline. There is no risk of strike in the near future thanks to the TA.

Ken,
I just want to understand why you feel the need to express your negativity all over the place. I'm afraid that you aren't any better than the people you seem to be against. Who cares who voted for or against. Even if the folks who are going to sit at the road show have questions doesn't mean that will be bad. I suggest you grow up and let everyone who looks at this make a decision based on what they think, not what you think.:rolleyes:

What the heck do you want? I say you should continue under the same rates now and then when the TA passes we will all take the raise and you stay the same. Just keep in mind all of the soft money you will be losing out on. You are looking at about an 8 to 12,000 dollar raise but if you don't want it I'll take it.:)

Sounds like a management troll if I've ever heard one.