TA is up on Airlink Pilots

Don, rejecting the TA (if it happens), getting released (ditto), and moving towards a strike doesn't necessarily mean a strike. But if the TA flops, the THREAT of a strike might be what it takes to get a better agreement. Are there risks in playing that game of chicken? Sure.

Worked for Mesaba...

hey, it's been a long time!

I was responding to the post that suggested to toss it all away and just walk away and make them give the pilot group what they want. I responded why that would not work at this time.

I am not saying the threat will not work, I am saying both sides know they can't afford it. No pilot should be thinking that in their back pocket they can go on strike for 30 days (or more) and walk away and they will get THE industry leading contract.

Mesaba was also a lot closer as I recall, they had only 2-3 sections that were being held up. Kick this TA back and your looking at more than a few sections that people are going to want tweaked.

Can someone post an overview for us?

9E guys- let's do the talking on airlinkpilots so management doesn't get a free show. Details will get released but let's keep things on our side of the fence for the first few days.

Also- please NO copy/paste from the company board of OTHER pilot's comments.

I agree, it is not important what people from other airlines think about this right now, we have to look at it and decided for ourselves. I am not going to look at this website until after the voting. Later Losers!:D

Oh c'mon....you'll be back before then!

Vote NO
 

Gojet has a better contract then this sub-standard half baked contract we are being offered. FO's accross the board should say "NO" We have waited this long for a contract. Why on earth should we accept this? It's time to clean up the MEC. DTW you guys have guts and should sit in on the next contract after we vote this one down.

This is no way to waste a 99% strike vote on a sub-standard not even good for Mesa contract!

Please read the whole contract and vote the way you see fit but don't sell your self short. It has been almost 5 years no reason to sell you self short on a contrat now. I was in this with you untill June and had my exit interview with Garvin. I'm now on the corp side and it is much better but I will help you guys out any way i can

FYI, I GUARANTEE your management has "moles" on that forum who forward or print copies for them to read too. Keeping it there guarantees nothing... it just narrows the discussion to employees only.

When I was a union rep, we'd go to the GO and management officials would strategically place print outs from the union message board on their desk to be sure we saw them.

It's incomplete!
 

Why would they put out a TA for review when it's incomplete? Sections 2-3, 11, 25-28 are MISSING!! How can anyone form an opinion based on this. Come on! What's the deal.

Language still being finalized in other sections I believe...They wanted to give us something to start sifting through...More than fair I think.

I would think that if a TA was agreed upon by both sides, the language would already be finalized. For example, payrates.

Believe it or not many things still change.

How can something change when it has already been agreed upon? Both sides can't agree on a TA, then change their interpretation of that agreement during publication. That makes it sound likes it wasn't final in the first place.

Let me recall the events:
1. TA agreed by both sides.
2. Review of Final language.
3. Vote by MEC.
4. Release for view by pilot group.

I believe thats one of several reasons its called a Tenative Agreement.

we have moles, not all were pilots though. Some were boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife that work in corporate and have the significant others password. A few months back we did get creative in IP tracking and shut down the easy access. Now if they want to access it, they still can, just not from their desktop computers. The handful of moles that actually came out when we shut them down was surprising, most had no idea we were watching and no idea they were doing some damage to the pilot group.

You are never going to have a bullet proof system, some moron will always think they are doing the right thing and nothing will ever convince them otherwise.

As a mod on airlinkpilots I can tell you there are numerous blocked ip's and usernames in efforts to limit to ability of mgmt to watch our discussions.

so if 75% DH and Cancellation pay and block or better is the improvement, i have to ask what your current contract is on those subjects. i guess i took those things for granted because ASA had them in the 2002 contract

from the 1999 CBA (yes, TEN years ago), 50% DHD, CXL varied (certain limited conditions you could get 100%) but generally 50%, and a give back of 15 minutes over trip value before continued compensation.

Still no block or better- it's trip value or better. Still giving up money out peers take for granted. Even the lowest in the industry has BOB, unless we vote to become the new low.

what is the difference?

Lets say our trip value is 1:00 between MEM and LIT. if you fly it in :50 you still get 1:00. If you fly it in 1:10 you will now get paid 1:10. Thats what we want. In our current contract you would still only get 1:00 till you went over :15 minutes. For example now if the flight takes you 1:15 you still only get paid 1:00. Trip value or better seems to me to be the same as block or better.

Scheduled block includes a buffer of time to prevent late arrivals. Most pilots get paid for that buffer. 9E pilots do not.

Amateurs.

bingo- company gets the ability to buffer out the block time and not pay anybody, but DOES get industry leading numbers and a bonus. I'm a big proponent of having to "pay to play". Nothing great is free, and the best things are worth waiting for.

Doesn't SKW have a trip value different than scheduled block for some of their segments?

What about when trip value is greater than the block?

How many city pairs are credited greater than the block?

Summer time we would make more money, winter time we would lose more money. Would they equal out??

Did the union run the numbers on this issue?

the senior guys in the union ran the numbers, the argument has always been that trip value was "guaranteed" money. Therefore you know what you will make in a month. You don't lose money in the winter, the spread is in slightly in the companies favor (with a delay, you will still make the same, or work for free). During the summer, the spread is in the pilots favor, you will make more and fly less. Due to the yearly adjustment of trip values, those pilots that try to hedge the trip values (by hauling butt) during the summer eventually give it back to the company when they next evaluation is done.

bottom line, all trip values do is guarantee a fixed amount. When you get to 15+ years and can live on 75 hours alone, trip values is what you will desire. Least amount of hours for a guaranteed paycheck.

Looking back at my credit versus block on an average trip (both summer and winter), I usually end up getting paid for about 5 hours per month that I didn't actually fly...our trip values and block times are inflated enough that it takes a significant number of IROPs to actually end up getting paid less than what you actually block...but maybe I'm just "an amateur"

If I vote no, it will have nothing to do with this issue or 75% deadhead pay...block-or-better and 100% deadhead pay would realistically only make a few dollars difference per month (if anything) in my paycheck...

And let's not forget--POSITIVE SPACE deadhead home on request (if it's on delta/delta conn.) at the end of the trip and/or no-questions-asked release from a dhd at the end of a trip??? That's worth the extra 25% pay to any commuter...

I didn't see that when I glanced over the TA. Does that mean after every trip they positive space us back home?

i know. when i saw that about the dead heads that was pretty good. i have had to go to dtw to do highspeeds and have had to sit in the hotel all day long to get the required rest and they wont release you. now i can call when i get back from my highspeed and if they dont have anything for me they have to release me and i can jump on the first flight home.

Having not yet seen your TA, I can't say for sure if its sum is below our contract, but I'm starting to get a feeling it is by a large bit.

You guys do what you think is best for you, but keep in mind you're going to lose a lot of respect from your peers if you do a Mesa and start a new race for the bottom.

NO!! It only applies when your trip ends with the final leg as a DH to your domicile. If this is the case, then you can request to be deadheaded to your home airport.

Please read your TAs carefully!

Did someone really negotiate this on your behalf? From the few details I have heard, this is still going to be one of the worst contracts in the industry if this gets voted in. Why wouldn't someone get 100% deadhead pay? I thought block or better is standard these days. Seems like it will be 10 more years before you can try to undue this again if this gets passed. Of course by then we will all have out 1000 PIC and be captains at majors :) Seems the market really likes the contract though, at least your shareholders will be happy. Don't sell yourselves short.

you really NEED to read between the lines. Not the words, but what it means... Jeez...

When you are NOT on company equipment you only get scheduled, not actual? so if you sit 2 hours for deice for a 60 min flight you get 60 min, not block which may be 3 hours.


the DHD language to home it is not what it appears to be for most. Example, Your last flight is MLI to a domicile. The company, upon pilot request AND pass agreement WHEN such transportation is available will move the pilot to their home airport.

So, if you reside in MIA, you better hope there is a direct flight from MLI to MIA on a DAL/DCI flight, otherwise it will be denied because it cannot be met. Does anyone really think given the choice of a MLI-MEM they will give up MLI-MIA? what pay do you get? since you are on duty do you get 75% from MLI to MIA or do you get MLI-MEM?
what happens if that flight home goes through a hub or focus city?
If you are pos space you are on duty, do you get per diem? Heck, what about duty limits? A DHD back to domicile will keep you within duty limits, what happens when your flight to "home" goes beyond duty limits? Under LOA 05-02 which had similar language, the double/triple connections either exceeded duty limits OR were against the pass agreement. If there is not a direct flight from last outstation to home, there are a lot of issues that would have to be addressed.

the "permitted by pass agreement" is the out for the company, that would need to be clarified CLEARLY before KNOWING you are getting a deal.

The only bang for the buck is on training events, because for the -200 guys you are in a hub, so the odds are in your favor of being pos space to your home. For the -900 guys, depending on where you live it may be worth while. You better pray your sims stays at hub, otherwise the training provision is worthless.

read between the lines, not the word. Ask what is the language NOT saying, that is where the company will be looking from.

Why can't your MEC go over the best sections of other ALPA contracts (XJT, AWAC, Eagle, ASA, Comair) and start from there? Now I have not seen it yet so I will hold back my final opinion but if it is not on par with the companies listed above you guys will lose a lot of respect with us. You do the same job we do, there is no reason why this TA shouldn't meet or exceed any of the other top regional contracts. Why on earth would you agree to anything less? You guys are going to set the benchmark for the new round of regional contracts. You have all the negotiating power you will ever get in your careers with the recent senate hearings, please raise the bar so the rest of us do not have to start negotiating from a lower level.

Exactly! You guys have so much leverage on this one it isn't even funny. It is like the stars all lined up in your favor. Maybe its time for the militant base to put out a "vote no" campaign?

the bar cannot be set higher by this agreement, the majority of the TA was set 3-4 years ago, only the last few sections were done this year. The only possible way would be to vote it down and redo those sections that are well below the bar. The price may be upwards of 2 years, will the industry/economy bounce back enough to have leverage for a leading contract in that time? Those "leading" contracts were all signed/TA'd when life was good. No one TA's ALL the sections on the last day, some were TA'd months or years before hand.

Know the process before losing respect. Much of this TA was done when majors were taking 25%+ concessionary cuts just to stay afloat. Most of the top regionals also took cuts during the time 9E was negotiating.

And after those cuts the other regional pilots are still significantly higher paid and working under a better contract, how do you explain that? If the majority of this TA was signed 3-4 years ago then it should be pretty good, 3-4 years ago life was good for regional airlines. Pinnacle can NOT have the business model centered around having cheaper labor than its competitors. I am very aware of the process, I am also aware of the reality of the situation and what you guys have going for you. I as well as many other regional pilots are rooting for the Pinnacle pilots. Wouldn't it be worth it to vote it down and redo the whole contract now that so many things have changed in the last 3-4 years?

Just out of curiosity, is the Pinnacle or Colgan MEC interested in merging the two lists? (I'm sure this has been discussed many times)

Again guys please read as i am no longer with the company i do not have access to airlinkpilots anymore. I would like to see it when some one posts it but from the sounds of it i would not be voting for it as a 3 year FO if i was still there