The parent letter has not been released yet but DOES cover the colgan/pinnacle (9E/9L) issues. When it becomes available that is something I WILL bring out into the public so our Colgan siblings can see how this "family arrangement" is being set up. The document should be up soon in addition to some other sections that are still being worked on between the company and association.


In the crewroom it seems nobody has a positive taste in their mouth over this TA, but the fear of "what if we don't" is frustrating to hear. Vote on the contract- that's what it's for, we are not voting on a contract to keep or lose jobs. Remember the "last,best, final offer" deal in 06 and the saturday fedex package? Yea- same BS scheme of fear.l

Please for the sake of the industry please vote for what they have offered not by how long it may be for a new TA if voted down During my 2 and 1/2 time in mike office with Garvin on the day i came in to turn in my books and id badge he asked my what i did not like about pinnacle i told him managment as they will interprete everything to there advantage and don't care about there employees just like the bs he was saying about our flight beninns with delta. I asked him why they would say one thing and turn around and do something compleatly different he had no answer. so do read the contract from the company view other wise you may end up regretting the next 5 to 10 years

All Pinnacle Brothers and Sisters;

Please take your time and vote wisely. Go to the road shows. Read the TA for yourself. Ask questions. For God's sake, do not listen to rumor or what someone "thinks" is in the TA. Find out for yourselves.

Please do not cave into management's empty and veiled threats that you will be closing up shop if you do not pass this TA. Chapter 1 Page 1 out of the Management Playbook says to instill fear amongst the employees until it passes. This is just a scare tactic! Their "last, best and final offer" is anything but. If you tell a lie long enough, eventually people begin to believe it. They can do better and you deserve better. Do not be overcome by the airline version of the Stockholm Syndrome; make no mistake, that is exactly what this is. If they hold you hostage long enough, eventually you may begin to sympathize with them.

At Comair in 2005 were told that if we took pay freezes and longevity freezes that we would be "in line" with other DCI carriers and would win growth. It didn't happen. Then later in 2005-2006 we were dragged into a sham bankruptcy along with Delta and were forced to sign a concessionary agreement under the threat of the 1113 process. We were told that if we did not take concessions that Comair would fold. However, if we did take the concessionary agreement that (and I am quoting our VP of Flight Ops) "Delta would grow the hell out of us" and (a quote from our Chief Pilot at the time) "this place will grow like wild fire". Well, we agreed on a concessionary contract, again, under the threat of having a Bankruptcy Court imposed contract forced on us using the 1113 process. Well, I can tell you that the bleeding continued and we did not see any growth. In fact, we still to this day are being gutted slowly with, unfortunately, no end in sight.

You know the saying. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Well that certainly applies here.

I guess what I am trying to say is do not settle for one cent less than you are worth. Anything less than that is unacceptable. Of course your management team will hem and haw and say that you will fold or that Delta will send your flying away or that it will put you at an uncompetitive disadvantage. But the fact is that agreeing to a sub par contract will not guarantee that those things won't happen anyway.

Just ask any Comair pilot.

Pretty sure it's an inevitability at this point that we'll be merged one day...I'm pretty sure portions of that section were TA'ed before the ALPA vote at Colgan, b/c the language says something to the effect of if there's a merging, it will be governed by Associate bylaws if the "other" company (of course colgan isn't explicitly mentioned) is in the same Association, or Allegheny-Mohawk if the other airline isn't in the same Association....

We haven't seen the most important sections yet--PBS, Scheduling, Pay, Pass Travel, and Parent Letter....many ta'ed sections such as vacation will be overriden by the more-recent PBS document...

I understand the ire of other regionals that we might draw if we vote it in, since our payrates are rumored to be lower than current book on ASA/Skywest/etc....however, the PBS document has been talked up quite a bit, and supposedly will be the most comprehensive document governing PBS line construction and usage in the industry--I'm eager to see that scheduling section and the parent letter...

SKYW has a historical credit value that is usually within a couple of minutes of scheduled block in either direction. But we still get block or better.

The parent letter actually does set a new precedent for regionals under holding companies. The scope we have is good, even when I give it to my wife and have her play management (she's really good at it and it normally starts a fight over our arguing), and she says "damn- I can't even spin it".


Unfortunately the parent letter and scope are the top and are section 1 and separate of the rest of the 30 sections. Thankfully, the R&I sections are not out to the public and are being worked on. It's amazing what happens when the committee calls up the department (benefits) and can work on a deal separate from the negotiating group. I still think this TA is NOT something worth it's paper, especially after 4+ years. Call me the "give me" generation or whatever else, but read the deal and START by comparing it to the CONCESSIONARY deals of our peers- you will come up short. Then looking at deals of late (ASA and even MAG) and my decision was a no-brainer. If YOU feel you are lacking info, call me (9E guys can get my number from our union site) or email me. I can send you the other carriers and you can make your own educated decision. I have respect for all the guys working on this- heck I have been on the phone over 3000 mins just with "work" calls and the month isn't even over, but this TA is not a settlement- it's a concession. The company is trying to secure a cheap labor group that performs at the highest level of any RJ carrier in the world. Mgmt is playing the game perfectly, but we can't let ourselves and this industry going forward be railroaded into this due to vail "threats" and contract fatigue. Here is a copy/paste from my post on the company site that I hope nobody takes offense to, but I deliberated for a long time before posting it..


I recommend anyone who already hasn't to take a look at "flying the line v.1 and 2. Good reads- seriously, many chapters are far more entertaining than this board and may give you a different vantage point of this entire process and how it can take a little hardball to have decades worth of great times. You came here most likely to fly and make a living right? You read all the flying books that dealt with flying (ratings, regs, procedures), take a little time and read up on the airline world of labor- it's been a rough industry and looks to stay that way. Many carriers faced this same conundrum and made decisions that they themselves second guessed then, that have paid off exponentially now- only because they stood up unified for what they all felt was "Right" for not only their personal future, but the entire industry's. Remind yourself why you were part of the 99% who voted to strike? Are we really all talk and no bite?- I am sure that question will get answered when we start seeing barking over this TA when everyone goes through it from every range of the seniority list. If the TA is good enough, the vote will show it, if it's not and we vote it in we will be chuckled at just as we chuckle over the flight attendants complaining and all saying they voted "no", but it passed. We are only as good as our actions as a whole. Make YOUR decision and we will have a unified position at the end of the voting period.


The "good" contracts have NEVER fallen in the laps of pilots- there has always been a good deal of tension (applied from both sides) to get a great deal. In each new deal precedents were set that at the next negotiating cycle became the "industry average". We are a couple years away from some of the current "leaders" to go into negotiations- do you think those guys are willing to take anything less than what they currently have in a deal? We are going to be voting on a 3rd generation contract- when we are at a timeline for a 4th generation deal. Your vote, my vote, and the other 1248 votes will all come together and show the MEC, mgmt, and the industry overall how we are going forward in this industry.

We all must think not about what it means NOW, but what it means in 5 years, 10 years, or even decades depending on how old (or willing) you are to stay in this industry. Look back on the last 5 years (or however long you have been here) and think of how a few months would have changed things with these new rates. Thinking a plasma on the wall in front of you, a nice ride outside- or maybe in a garage? Then think going forward where you see yourself in 5/10/25 years. A few months can change things drastically in a good or bad direction forward, typically not looking back though in the monetary terms, but ACTIONS from the past you may have changed- and what would your situation be today. Are we "settling" on a deal, or do WE feel this contract compensates, covers, and treats you as you deserve compared to peers doing the same job?

I don't care how you vote, everyone's opinions and viewpoints make a message board an entertaining and enlightening place to visit. Management would love for us to "call in fatigued" and just sign a deal- remember the "last, best, final offer" (from a couple years ago), but WE make the decision on continuing this process, or settle with 4.5 years of negotiations to yield a document that sets the bounds of every aspect of our lives. Work impacts every aspect of life- You may be "off", but the money you spend when you are "off" is derived from "work". QOL is always talked about- are we going to settle for the same junk, new tricks? Ask the guys on RSV at ASA- things just got "different" for folks in the bucket system. Scheduling (with <retreacted for APC> help) will always find a way to cover flying- regardless of what you make think is fair and just unless the words in the contract say they can't in black and white. This document covers every pilot, in each area of the seniority list and payscale- it's impossible to make everyone happy, but is everyone getting improvements at least on par with your peers at other carriers?


This TA is not just awaited on by the 1250 of us, but all our "peers" to see how things are going to be compared to when negotiations open up for the majority of them in 2011. We look at the IMPROVEMENTS in ASA pay from 07 after all the "good" carriers fell into concessionary deals- ASA brought the bar back up, is it a blip of positive when carriers open up talks in 2011 and mgmt tells each and every one of them "Pinnacle signed this in 09 and it's pilot's agreed that this is the going rate for services"?

We say MESA is the bottom- remember they voted theirs down, got a tad bigger payrate and a 2-yr deal and it's in place- and every pilot still b*tches about the deal. Mesa does the same work, but we knock em- XJT,AWAC,ASA do the same work and we envy their contracts while most of them say they are happy? Am I the only one who sees the coincidence?

The biggest message we get to send is the entire pilot vote on this contract- it's not 3 guys on a committee thinking it's good enough, it's not 8 reps who think it's barely enough to show the pilots, it's 1250 pilots stating a voice and final answer on how they will live for the next 5+ years of their lives.

Ahh.... there's the step down from the soapbox.

Goodnight.

please vote only with thé idea is this contract good for thé industry and thé pilot group

"since our payrates:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: are rumored to be lower than current book"???? There's no question the payrates are lower!!!!!

bad rumor:eek:

payrates are approximately current book plus COLA for the last 5 years. Some longevity rates have an added 3-4 buck increase, senior longevity pay (top 6% of the sen list) is below current book plus COLA for the last 5 years.

I didn't type out his entire quote since it was right above my reply, and I figured everyone would see the whole thing...but apparently you didn't notice he said "current book at ASA, SkyWest, etc."!:eek: SO, yes it is less, quite a bit less!!

This is what some people are missing when they attempt to post comments on the 9E TA. 9E is at the 3rd generation, what generation is everyone else?

9E's 2nd contract was basically thrown together (in 1999) to get jets with only 250 pilots on the property at that time. I must add, at that time every other regional we are being compared to, had jets already, and some for many years before 9E's first jet arrived in June 2000.

So, 9E was 5-6 steps behind everyone then, hopefully with this or another TA they will only be 2-3 steps behind everyone.

my bad..:D no argument! In comparison to just about everybody else, it is less.

I was on the negotiating committee for ASA's "3rd generation contract"....I heard the same excuse from ALPA and the Democratic NMB...The ASA pilots "work to rule" changed that....It all depends on the pilots....I don't expect that to happen anymore...We are all doing what is best for each of us...ALPA has failed by allowing this bidding for flying...

Gojet is on their first generation... whats your point?

who wanted the airframes at Gojets, the company or the pilots?

9E was shrinking back in '99, they were offered the carrot and went for it. They started from a negative position to survive. You need to know the climate at the time. Comair was in a great position, ASA was the same, they brought the company's to their knee's and did well by doing so.

If 9E votes the TA down, they may get some leverage, at what price is the question they are asking themselves.

Don- Maybe I am just interpreting this post wrong but are you condoning a "settlement" to only 2-3 steps behind instead of running with the pack? In every race I have run it's always beneficial to stay with the pack and your pace group. Are we going to go to the back and run with the same contracts we call the "bottom feeders"? I am not saying we need to sprint to the front and run out of steam and take concessions- BUT I am saying we should be an updated version of the DCI carriers and running with the group in the entire industry. We are in a precarious position being that other carriers are coming up for negotiations in a couple years when we should/will be in the middle of a contract, but we do have absolutely NO excuse to hang back for a guaranteed 5 years.

Can you clarify the message you are trying to convey?

2-3 steps behind is not a good goal. Shoot to be 2-3 steps ahead and then settle for even or 1 step ahead of the pack.

If you accept this contract because times are tough your management will simply drag out negotiations every time until the economy turns crappy and then give you a bad offer and say, "Sorry times are tough this is the best we can do." Don't settle for that, you guys deserve so much more!

There is no reason your company can't afford to pay what your fellow regionals pay. We all fly the same equipment in and out of the same hubs. If your management can't pay you what you deserve because their other costs are out of line they are bad businessmen/women or they are simply lying to you.

lying would not be out of the question for 9E management group also stupidity and greedy will discribe them quite well. CFO hay Phill we have a lot of money sitting around should we settle the contract and pay the pilots Phill No we will come up with something to tell them a drag on the negoitions CFO oh ok well we can invest the money Phill in what CFO Auction Rate securities and increase our bounus for the year Phil ok it is only the pilots money we have nothing to lose

Shay?.....................

No mention of llamas. Can't be Shay

I wonder if my pony will get along with the llamas.

I can't see why not. With this contract it looks like both are fictional creatures. They can get along with whatever you want :D

no not Shay I was a msp FO bid # 25 i left in May to to a corp gig flying a challenger not disapointed at all in leaving and from what tid bit of the contract i have herd about or seen i am very disapointed in it I throught that we would of had a better deal

Good for you! But put spellcheck on- reading your posts is like translating discussion on the ramp in Memphis.

Sorry, doing three things at once.

I would NEVER condone or remotely suggest a settlement. I am saying with the complexity of the TA, rejection and re-negotiation of some (not all of the sections), 9E would more than likely still be 2-3 steps behind. Lets be realistic, some carriers have language that hotels will be in city centers, do you really think 9E pilots will delay 2 years on a re-negotiation for city center hotels? Or would they rather have the focus on work rules?. There inevitably will be some sections that will be slightly behind the herd. The goal is not to have the WHOLE TA behind the herd, a section here and there is not going to make that much difference provided the core sections are with the herd.
No one had a "perfect" contract, that is what I am trying to convey. 9E will not get a perfect contract, no one would otherwise why would you have amenable dates?

aw c'mon now.. they are simple the best now! Aren't they?

I heard the remaining sections were released. Some okay, some still have people scratching their heads trying to understand who was negotiating for the pilots.

with the whole package out there, read closely and carefully. The date on one of the documents hint, if passed, Oct 1, 2009 is the effective date.

The rest of the TA was released and get this - THERE ARE NO PAYRATES!!! Instead of having defined payrates, every year they take the industry average and apply them to us up to a maximum of 3%. We are completly dependant on what other carriers negotiate. Does anybody know of another carrier that has done this? Seems like a bad presidence to set. Have fun with this one guys. :mad:

Well, on one hand you will never be the bottom of the pack in pay. On the other hand it is unlikely you will ever be the leader in pay. The standard being set is a mid range pay comparative to your peers.

the downsides are no COLA adjustment, just a DOS increase of 1% to a maximum of 3%.

One way to look at it is there is no incentive to the "simply the best", the goal you should aim for is just average. If your peers are the best and compensated as such, you will reap the rewards from their efforts. Your compensation for the next X amount of years is completely dependent on your peers, nothing else.

If anything, this section only tells your peers management that they should not increase anyone's compensation. All pilots should be paid the same regardless of the work they do, compensation should only be based on how many pax the airframe can handle.

It's a scam being pulled on regional airline employees...

if "everybody" has a contract specifying "industry average" it does not take a rocket scientist to see that if ANY pilot group takes a pay cut, then the industry average just dropped, which means the next contract up for negotiation is by default going to also take a small hit... the process will continue in a downward spiral until nobody will take the job for those wages. We were almost at that point two years ago when they resorted to hiring people with the ink still wet on their tickets.

The very notion of them trying to sell a pilot group on ANYTHING "industry average" is insulting to anybody capable of using basic logic to follow the resulting trend to it's inevitable conclusion.

The idea of a UNION trying to tell their pilots that "industry average" is a good thing is a joke.

I agree, 100%, instead of recalling just 2 MEC guys, I would hope 9E pilots recall them all except for those who voted NO.

if everyone took concessionary pay cuts, the only protection is the DOS increase at 1%, or .30 to about 1 buck a year (for the super senior). I believe wally world greeters get more than that every year as an increase.

Well so much for the hope and faith i had in our union. I know when i was there i was paying my dues and trying to support them. I guess it was all a waste. Plus the time on the picket line and the family events. I had high hopes for the pilots of pinnacle when i left now if this is what they thing is a good contract i very disapointed

I think the MEC did the right thing by letting the pilots vote on this TA, even though it is not good.

What would make you vote yes?

For me, same 401k match as the rest of the company (basically is 100% of 5%/ 100% vested right away)11 days off for reserves, 2 year contract duration, and COLA after the amendable date.

401k and 11 days off for reserves are a HUGE deal for me. I'm voting NO.

VOTE NOT ONLY NO, BUT HELL NO!

they had no choice, what would you think if they turned it down after 5 years? Many would have wanted to lynch them. This way, they have the "out" regardless of which way the vote goes down. Pretty convenient from the cheap seats.

I am just wondering who is going to try to come out claiming to save everyone from the less than stellar, 5 year long project that nets very little.

I bid for CDO's and based on what i've seen. It will be worse than what our work rules for CDO's that we have now. They took away the 5 hr. "break" on the ground, but they still can schedule up to 4 CDO's in a row? no extra pay for picking up CDO's like 5+ hrs credit (based on the rumors) my vote will be NO now!

Why? What benefit has come by us seeing the contract?

If the MEC had voted no, they would already be planning what to do next. By allowing us to see a ****** TA, they only accomplished adding a month and half to the process. Now when we vote it down at the end of September, we will finally be able to begin what could have started over a week ago.

Yeah for us, we got to read it. We now also get to live without a contract for even longer. Way to go MEC.

Actually, if the MEC had voted it down - the NMB would have not looked very kindly upon us. If we say "NO!!!" then we have more ammo for shuttin this puppy down!

That plus the message you send back to Nonconnah.

What a joke. Whoever negotiated and agreed on this one had to be drunk. 10 Yr CA making Eighty grand and ten days off?? LOL You can install Cable Television and do better than that.