3407 WILL happen again if things don't change
08-30-2009, 11:10 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Lots of reasons for this accident and no single reason is the ONLY reason. the commonality amongst most aviation accidents is a chain of events or decisions which lead to the accident. In the end this was a pilot error accident, end of story. That is NOT a slam on the pilots. Most accidents are, and accidents happen to high time experienced pilots as well as lower time pilots. Should there be better time and duty limits for passenger operations..probably. Should some companies tighten up their training and recurrent standards...probably. Would higher compensation not allowed this accident to happen.. probably not... lots of well paid pilots commute. Hell years ago the AA crew room in MIA had this large wonderful lazy boys that LOTS of pilots AA and AE alike slept in all night. Would adherence to the sterile cockpit rule have saved this crew... I dont think so. In the best of circumstances ...well rested..well paid...well trained... pilots make errors.... what we can do to at least acknowledge that is to learn from the chain of errors and hope we are never in that situation.
You will never get the accident rate to 0. Its just not possible... airplanes are mechanical and sometime break... and pilots are human and sometimes even against all logic do things they shouldnt.
You will never get the accident rate to 0. Its just not possible... airplanes are mechanical and sometime break... and pilots are human and sometimes even against all logic do things they shouldnt.
08-30-2009, 11:12 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Non flying, pays better than any front seat, home every night, not missing the crashpad/
Posts: 133
I agree the regionals suck when it comes to compensation and schedules. They always have, and always will. But does that justify saying "I am gonna endanger a flight because my company doesn't give me what I want." We need better compensation yes. We also need professionals making better choices. Commution across the country for a regional job is like a high school kid driving two hundred miles a day to work at a mall. It makes no sense.
Follow the money, it is all about profit margins and if they are making the predetermined money, they will pull and go. This goes for all airlines, so check you investors and gauge their return rate expectations. If a group dips into their pocket, plan for the worse. I did not see this the first time it happened, at least during the second go around I was well aware, just didn't think an overnight shutdown would occur.
08-30-2009, 05:45 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: Hotel
Posts: 714
Get a crash pad. They run about $150/month for your own bed. That 150 bucks isn't going to make or break anyone. The pay is low, but not being fatigued in the cockpit is the first step. That little bit of money will go a long way towards hot showers and a place to relax when in domicile.
08-31-2009, 05:51 AM
#34
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 21
08-31-2009, 06:47 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 239
What really has to change is that damned two-tiered system that has evolved in the industry. The codeshares are awarded flying based on a competitive bidding system and once the contract has been signed by the lowest bidder they have to work within that cost structure vs. revenue. Fee-per-departure, EAS, capacity purchase. All of these systems are designed to save money for the mainline, and limit the revenue that the regional codeshare is able to realize for every RPM.
The current business model that ALPA is using is an anachronism that goes back to the pre-deregulation era. Having an association of individual pilot groups with a national office. DOES NOT work for ALL pilots in in the union. I support the union, I am a union member. I think it is time to put more pressure on the union to get this national seniority list protocol done to protect our jobs and wages.
3407 IS going to happen again, and the single-level of safety propoganda that the FAA, ATA, RAA puts out is just that. There is a direct correlation between safety and the amount of money that is being spent. Be it pilot wages, better training, better work rules, etc...Professional attitudes and experience are mutually exclusive. Having a professional attitude and good training will not always make up for a lack of experience. Why is that 1200 hours were required for me to fly checks? Yet, I had 300 hr. F/Os that had never been in Class B airspace and didn't know how to read an arrival chart? Not their fault, just the situation out there as recent as early 2008. These guys and gals were motivated, and a pleasure to teach and fly with, BUT they shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place. Just my opinion.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
The current business model that ALPA is using is an anachronism that goes back to the pre-deregulation era. Having an association of individual pilot groups with a national office. DOES NOT work for ALL pilots in in the union. I support the union, I am a union member. I think it is time to put more pressure on the union to get this national seniority list protocol done to protect our jobs and wages.
3407 IS going to happen again, and the single-level of safety propoganda that the FAA, ATA, RAA puts out is just that. There is a direct correlation between safety and the amount of money that is being spent. Be it pilot wages, better training, better work rules, etc...Professional attitudes and experience are mutually exclusive. Having a professional attitude and good training will not always make up for a lack of experience. Why is that 1200 hours were required for me to fly checks? Yet, I had 300 hr. F/Os that had never been in Class B airspace and didn't know how to read an arrival chart? Not their fault, just the situation out there as recent as early 2008. These guys and gals were motivated, and a pleasure to teach and fly with, BUT they shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place. Just my opinion.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
08-31-2009, 07:01 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Posts: 876
BINGO! Pilots are all talk. Few will put their money where their mouth is and come in a day early EVEN WITH a FREE hotel room.
08-31-2009, 10:27 AM
#37
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Get a crash pad. They run about $150/month for your own bed. That 150 bucks isn't going to make or break anyone. The pay is low, but not being fatigued in the cockpit is the first step. That little bit of money will go a long way towards hot showers and a place to relax when in domicile.
08-31-2009, 05:16 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Aeroflot pilots had a national seniority list because they only had one airline to choose from. Until ALL airlines merge into one super airline a NSL would never work and personally I hope it'll never happen. This country is speeding in the direction of socialism already, no reason to speed up a potentially disastrous process...
08-31-2009, 06:35 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 389
I finished a trip late the other night and was going to catch a 6 a.m. flight home so decided to just sleep in the crew room for a few hours before my flight rather than pay for a hotel room for just a few hours. It kind of frightened me to see three other pilots sleeping in the crew room for the night simply for the fact that they did not have crashpads. Some of these pilots were staying in the crewroom on reserve until they got called for trips, which could be days on end. After the Colgan accident it just frightens me that pilots are flying these trips after sleeping on couches for days on end in loud crewrooms with totally improper rest. I can understand it if you do not have to work the following day however to basically make the crewroom your home while on reserve is just plain negligent. I just had to get this off my chest and feel that something DRASTICALLY needs to be done before another acccident occurs that can be associated with fatigue. It's really no secret who I work for and CVG is not an expensive place but I guess it goes to show how little most of us make and the shortcuts we are willing to take to try and make the most for our money.
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