Av8rking

I just read this after making my last post. Very well said!!!

NightIP

They've actually been in recess for the last month. They'll be back to work within the next several days to vote on H.R. 3371.

findinantherjob

1. 3407 happened because of pilot error (not fatigue)
2. When a pilot agrees to sleep in a crew room because he/she cant afford a crash pad (or to move to a domicile), that pilot is perpetuating the problem, making life worse for all other pilots. It is not managements' fault or the fault of congress.

johnso29

Can you say Lawsuits out the Wazoo?

johnso29

Really? It's not managements fault that they won't pay in line with the average cost of living for the domicile the pilot is based in? It's not managments fault that a pilot is expected to live in DCA or JFK on less then $20K per year? I'm sure management gets cost of living increases. I'm sure they get bonuses that come off the backs of the pilots. I'm sure they don't have the control to pay pilots a livable wage.

Yeah, it's all the pilots fault and management has NOTHING to do with it. Something tells me you must be management.

Oh and BTW, most pilot error is DUE TO FATIGUE! Try reading some NTSB reports.

Here, let me give you some examples:

Corporate Airlines Flight 5966 was preparing to land on Oct. 19, 2004, when the twin-engine turboprop slammed into trees. The pilots and 11 passengers were killed. Two injured passengers survived by jumping from the plane moments before it was engulfed in flames.

The NTSB said the pilots failed to notice that their plane had descended too quickly because they failed to follow procedures and engaged in unprofessional cockpit banter. But the board also said the captain and first officer probably were exhausted — they were completing their sixth flight of the day, had been on duty more than 14 hours and had flown three trips the day before.

Studies show exhaustion can impair a flier's judgment in much the same way alcohol does. It's not uncommon for overtired pilots to focus on a conversation or a single chore and miss other things going on around them, including critical flight information. In a few cases, they've just fallen asleep.

Last year, two Mesa Airlines pilots conked out for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii, as their plane continued to cruise past its destination and out to sea. Air traffic controllers were finally able to raise the pilots, who turned around the plane with its 40 passengers and landed it safely.

NTSB said that even though the pilots had not been working long that day, they were clearly fatigued. They cited the pilots' work schedules — the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 5:40 a.m. — and said the captain had an undiagnosed case of sleep apnea.

FAA rules on how many hours an airline pilot may fly or be on duty before he must rest have been virtually unchanged for nearly a half-century, mainly because if airlines have to allow their crews more rest, they would have to hire more crews.

An FAA effort to tackle the issue in the mid-1990s foundered because airlines wanted concessions from pilots in return for reducing flying hours, and the pilots unions wouldn't go along. The agency proposed a new rule, but it has languished for years without final action.

Drums4life

My point wasn't so much what caused that accident. Definitely not one single cause, but nobody can argue against fatigue being a factor. More so being we have pilots on reserve basically living in the crew room without a crashpad. Sleeping there for days on end, sometimes the only time they leave the airport is when they get a called for a flight. I'm sure this happens at various companies and will eventually lead to an accident due to fatigue, inattentiveness, whatever you want to call it.

johnso29

I agree with you. FARs and work rules are written in blood, and always will be. Loss of human life is the only thing that gets changes.

BobBinkie

Maybe we should petition the FAA to allow go and no go pills like the DoD does. As long as we fly for such long periods of time, using doctor approved and monitored drugs just as the military does should improve safety at the end of the 'day'.

NightIP

Didn't know we had an NTSB member with us on the forums! Welcome, sir!

findinantherjob

Say regional airline A decides to pay its pilots a reasonable wage to live in domicile (or anywhere for that matter). Airline B now comes in an underbids airline A because its pilots are willing to live in a crew room. What is airline A supposed to do? What choice does mgmt have?

BTW I'm not mgmt.

I understand I'm not NTSB and I'm definitely not saying there is not a fatigue problem in the industry (there obviously is). I researched the background for this capt. He had numerous failed checkrides and sub par performance (in terms of airmanship). I read the CVR and watched the NTSB animations. He stalled the aircraft because of poor airmanship. Maybe fatigue played a factor in it, but the aircraft crashed because of poor airmanship, and he was not a poor airman because he was tired.
Are you blaming his failed checkrides and poor past performance on fatigue too?