EDC vs. Release Time
09-16-2009, 10:07 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by seafeye
Lets say you have a 9am departure scheduled by your company.
You call up ATC either on the clearence delivery freq or through a radio service station. Should be the same either way. They will ask you for your EDT. (Estimated Time of Departure). Most F/O's i fly with will say 9am. Which is usually too early. That is just the time that our company wants us to push. So add a couple of minutes to give yourself time to safely get the airplane ready for departure. New F/O maybe add 20 min. Normally i like to add 10. Of course the gate agents can slow things down. Or wheelchairs etc....
So you tell ATC 9:10am. They call the center and they look for a slot to put you in. Ding Ding Ding there is one at 9:25. So they relay that info to you. You should have both engine running and ready to takeoff at that time.
The main problem i see is that people will get a release time too close to pushback time and can't get out. Then you have to get another release time. This ****es off ATC cause they have to make another phone call.
This isn't a completly correct example of how things work but consider it the pilots guide to release times.
You call up ATC either on the clearence delivery freq or through a radio service station. Should be the same either way. They will ask you for your EDT. (Estimated Time of Departure). Most F/O's i fly with will say 9am. Which is usually too early. That is just the time that our company wants us to push. So add a couple of minutes to give yourself time to safely get the airplane ready for departure. New F/O maybe add 20 min. Normally i like to add 10. Of course the gate agents can slow things down. Or wheelchairs etc....
So you tell ATC 9:10am. They call the center and they look for a slot to put you in. Ding Ding Ding there is one at 9:25. So they relay that info to you. You should have both engine running and ready to takeoff at that time.
The main problem i see is that people will get a release time too close to pushback time and can't get out. Then you have to get another release time. This ****es off ATC cause they have to make another phone call.
This isn't a completly correct example of how things work but consider it the pilots guide to release times.
If your at a uncontrolled field you shouldn't be getting your clearance until your ready for departure at the end of the runway.
09-16-2009, 11:44 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by The Farang
My PDC or clearance is usually always available 30 minutes prior to scheduled block out (push time). They always ask for your proposed time (block out time) if you call too early. Maybe your company files things differently than NWA/DELTA.
If your at a uncontrolled field you shouldn't be getting your clearance until your ready for departure at the end of the runway.
If your at a uncontrolled field you shouldn't be getting your clearance until your ready for departure at the end of the runway.
You can get your cleanance any time. If ATC ends the transmission with "Hold for Release" then you do just that.
09-16-2009, 12:10 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by seafeye
You can get your cleanance any time. If ATC ends the transmission with "Hold for Release" then you do just that.
09-16-2009, 12:34 PM
#14
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I tried to not make this complicated....
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...5/aim0502.html
5-2-6. Departure Restrictions, Clearance Void Times, Hold for Release, and Release Times
a. ATC may assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, hold for release, and release times, when necessary, to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow.
1. Clearance Void Times. A pilot may receive a clearance, when operating from an airport without a control tower, which contains a provision for the clearance to be void if not airborne by a specific time. A pilot who does not depart prior to the clearance void time must advise ATC as soon as possible of their intentions. ATC will normally advise the pilot of the time allotted to notify ATC that the aircraft did not depart prior to the clearance void time. This time cannot exceed 30 minutes. Failure of an aircraft to contact ATC within 30 minutes after the clearance void time will result in the aircraft being considered overdue and search and rescue procedures initiated.
NOTE-
1. Other IFR traffic for the airport where the clearance is issued is suspended until the aircraft has contacted ATC or until 30 minutes after the clearance void time or 30 minutes after the clearance release time if no clearance void time is issued.
2. Pilots who depart at or after their clearance void time are not afforded IFR separation and may be in violation of 14 CFR Section 91.173 which requires that pilots receive an appropriate ATC clearance before operating IFR in controlled airspace.
EXAMPLE-
Clearance void if not off by (clearance void time) and, if required, if not off by (clearance void time) advise (facility) not later than (time) of intentions.
2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure.
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) cleared to (destination) airport as filed, maintain (altitude), and, if required (additional instructions or information), hold for release, expect (time in hours and/or minutes) departure delay.
3. Release Times. A "release time" is a departure restriction issued to a pilot by ATC, specifying the earliest time an aircraft may depart. ATC will use "release times" in conjunction with traffic management procedures and/or to separate a departing aircraft from other traffic.
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) released for departure at (time in hours and/or minutes).
4. Expect Departure Clearance Time (EDCT). The EDCT is the runway release time assigned to an aircraft included in traffic management programs. Aircraft are expected to depart no earlier than 5 minutes before, and no later than 5 minutes after the EDCT.
b. If practical, pilots departing uncontrolled airports should obtain IFR clearances prior to becoming airborne when two-way communications with the controlling ATC facility is available.
a. ATC may assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, hold for release, and release times, when necessary, to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow.
1. Clearance Void Times. A pilot may receive a clearance, when operating from an airport without a control tower, which contains a provision for the clearance to be void if not airborne by a specific time. A pilot who does not depart prior to the clearance void time must advise ATC as soon as possible of their intentions. ATC will normally advise the pilot of the time allotted to notify ATC that the aircraft did not depart prior to the clearance void time. This time cannot exceed 30 minutes. Failure of an aircraft to contact ATC within 30 minutes after the clearance void time will result in the aircraft being considered overdue and search and rescue procedures initiated.
NOTE-
1. Other IFR traffic for the airport where the clearance is issued is suspended until the aircraft has contacted ATC or until 30 minutes after the clearance void time or 30 minutes after the clearance release time if no clearance void time is issued.
2. Pilots who depart at or after their clearance void time are not afforded IFR separation and may be in violation of 14 CFR Section 91.173 which requires that pilots receive an appropriate ATC clearance before operating IFR in controlled airspace.
EXAMPLE-
Clearance void if not off by (clearance void time) and, if required, if not off by (clearance void time) advise (facility) not later than (time) of intentions.
2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure.
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) cleared to (destination) airport as filed, maintain (altitude), and, if required (additional instructions or information), hold for release, expect (time in hours and/or minutes) departure delay.
3. Release Times. A "release time" is a departure restriction issued to a pilot by ATC, specifying the earliest time an aircraft may depart. ATC will use "release times" in conjunction with traffic management procedures and/or to separate a departing aircraft from other traffic.
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) released for departure at (time in hours and/or minutes).
4. Expect Departure Clearance Time (EDCT). The EDCT is the runway release time assigned to an aircraft included in traffic management programs. Aircraft are expected to depart no earlier than 5 minutes before, and no later than 5 minutes after the EDCT.
b. If practical, pilots departing uncontrolled airports should obtain IFR clearances prior to becoming airborne when two-way communications with the controlling ATC facility is available.
09-16-2009, 01:50 PM
#15
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If I could just expand on winglet’s post… pretty much spot on. EDCT’s are a national ground delay program from the ATCSCC, in the old days it was called Central Flow Control. They are looking at the major “pacing” airports, ATL ORD LAX SFO JFK LGA EWR… There is this formula that looks at airport arrival rates based on runway configuration, weather, airport acceptance rate, strings and mirrors, done in the dark with nobody looking, mathematical model stuff that’s put into a computer that generates EDCT’s based on your “proposed departure time”, and your predicted arrival time. 121 guys have no say to the departure time, but here’s a tip to you non-sched and Part 135 guys…. http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp You see that ORD/EWR/LAX is running a 2 hour delays, the big cheese in back wants to depart BFE (Bum F-ck Egypt) at 9:00 am, File a 7:00 am departure so the EDCT will issue you a 9:00 am EDCT! Too easy!
Now, let’s say that you are going from SYR to ORD, there is wx, yadda, yadda, and you have an EDCT time of 9:05 based on your “proposed” departure time of 7:30. All of this information was relayed to you at 7:05 as your FO dutifully called SYR clearance delivery for a clearance to ORD (clearances are available 30 prior to your proposed departure time). At 8:55 you are calling ground control for a push back/taxi clearance to make your 9:05 EDCT. Ground control informs you that you have a “9:15 release time”. ***?
EDCT’s are based on PFM, some sort of computer program, but for your “release time”, SYR tower is going to call the Center (in this case Cleveland Center’s Traffic Management Unit) and tell them that you will be ready to depart at 9:05, what time can you be released? ClevelandCenter is going to look at the actual aircraft in the air and try to wedge you into the conga line headed into ORD via the PAITN arrival as you depart SYR. Release times are going to be based on the actual number of aircraft in the air, and a “guestimation” that you’ll fit.
Release times have nothing to do with EDCT’s. For example let’s say that Denver Center has to give LA Center 15 miles between aircraft headed to LAX over CIVET, there are no national ground delay programs out there (EDCT’s, think FAA Washington, DC; release times are generated at your local Air Route Traffic Control Centers) Denver Center’s Traffic Management Unit will issue “release times” for LAX bound traffic from airports within Denver Center.
The intent is to keep a load on the system, not a burden. If ORD says they have an airport acceptance rate of 90, you want aircraft over the arrival fixes to meet that arrival rate… Hub and spoke be dammed, only so many aircraft can occupy the same piece of concrete at the same time. All others spin.
This concludes part one: Part two, The ugly truth.
Now, let’s say that you are going from SYR to ORD, there is wx, yadda, yadda, and you have an EDCT time of 9:05 based on your “proposed” departure time of 7:30. All of this information was relayed to you at 7:05 as your FO dutifully called SYR clearance delivery for a clearance to ORD (clearances are available 30 prior to your proposed departure time). At 8:55 you are calling ground control for a push back/taxi clearance to make your 9:05 EDCT. Ground control informs you that you have a “9:15 release time”. ***?
EDCT’s are based on PFM, some sort of computer program, but for your “release time”, SYR tower is going to call the Center (in this case Cleveland Center’s Traffic Management Unit) and tell them that you will be ready to depart at 9:05, what time can you be released? ClevelandCenter is going to look at the actual aircraft in the air and try to wedge you into the conga line headed into ORD via the PAITN arrival as you depart SYR. Release times are going to be based on the actual number of aircraft in the air, and a “guestimation” that you’ll fit.
Release times have nothing to do with EDCT’s. For example let’s say that Denver Center has to give LA Center 15 miles between aircraft headed to LAX over CIVET, there are no national ground delay programs out there (EDCT’s, think FAA Washington, DC; release times are generated at your local Air Route Traffic Control Centers) Denver Center’s Traffic Management Unit will issue “release times” for LAX bound traffic from airports within Denver Center.
The intent is to keep a load on the system, not a burden. If ORD says they have an airport acceptance rate of 90, you want aircraft over the arrival fixes to meet that arrival rate… Hub and spoke be dammed, only so many aircraft can occupy the same piece of concrete at the same time. All others spin.
This concludes part one: Part two, The ugly truth.
09-16-2009, 03:21 PM
#16
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For EDCT’s, again think national programs that are managed from the Air Traffic System Command Center (ATSCC) in Washington, DC and there are dirty little secrets. System substitutions.
For example major airport XYZ advertises an airport arrival rate (AAR) of 60 aircraft per hour based on wx, runways, sun and moon alignment, and PFM (pure friggin’ magic), the ATSCC will generate a ground delay program that computes EDCT’s based on proposed departure times, estimated time in route, estimated time of arrival over the arrival fix against the airport capacity, and generate a delay time.
The program that generates EDCT’s looks at airplanes over the arrival fixes in 15 minute blocks of time. A 60 AAR means that there should be 15 aircraft in every 15 minute block of time, i.e, 12:00-12:15, the EDCT’s should generate a 15 aircraft demand over the arrival fixes. One airplane per minute, 15 airplanes per quarter hour, 60 airplanes per hour. The program is blind, it don’t care if that airplane is a B747-400 or a SF340, one per minute, sixty tubes of aluminum per hour, it’s all the same.
Now, lets say that I am Major Airline “We own the frigg’n sky” and hub into airport XYZ with wide-bodied aircraft that are always full and make me insane amounts of money, but I’ve also got a couple of narrow body aircraft scheduled into XYZ that don’t generate as much revenue. Weather is an issue, and there is a national ground delay program out there generating EDCT’s. If I could only delay/cancel that low load/revenue narrow body flight from BFE to XYZ, and substitute my wide-body flight from ZYX to XYZ to arrive in the same “time slot” generated by the EDCT for the BFE departure, there would be no delay on my ZYX flight and I’ll make money! Still with me?
Once upon a time, when some regional airlines were “wholly owned” it was pretty clear when the Major Airline (MA) said that they wanted to substitute a 737 for that BE99 flight into XYZ, no problem.
What is the distinction between the regional flying the major airline’s colors, having been whipped-sawed against another regional or wholly owned? When Major Airline calls the ATSCC (oh yeah, speed dial and they know the FAA managers by name) and says: Billy/Joe/Bob, “we would like to substitute our flight MA123 for our express/link/connection flight 1234 into XYZ”. ATSCC says, “No problem”.
Hey express/link/connection carrier, how does that affect your “on time performance”? Or your next contract with Major Airlines as an express/link/connection carrier?
For example major airport XYZ advertises an airport arrival rate (AAR) of 60 aircraft per hour based on wx, runways, sun and moon alignment, and PFM (pure friggin’ magic), the ATSCC will generate a ground delay program that computes EDCT’s based on proposed departure times, estimated time in route, estimated time of arrival over the arrival fix against the airport capacity, and generate a delay time.
The program that generates EDCT’s looks at airplanes over the arrival fixes in 15 minute blocks of time. A 60 AAR means that there should be 15 aircraft in every 15 minute block of time, i.e, 12:00-12:15, the EDCT’s should generate a 15 aircraft demand over the arrival fixes. One airplane per minute, 15 airplanes per quarter hour, 60 airplanes per hour. The program is blind, it don’t care if that airplane is a B747-400 or a SF340, one per minute, sixty tubes of aluminum per hour, it’s all the same.
Now, lets say that I am Major Airline “We own the frigg’n sky” and hub into airport XYZ with wide-bodied aircraft that are always full and make me insane amounts of money, but I’ve also got a couple of narrow body aircraft scheduled into XYZ that don’t generate as much revenue. Weather is an issue, and there is a national ground delay program out there generating EDCT’s. If I could only delay/cancel that low load/revenue narrow body flight from BFE to XYZ, and substitute my wide-body flight from ZYX to XYZ to arrive in the same “time slot” generated by the EDCT for the BFE departure, there would be no delay on my ZYX flight and I’ll make money! Still with me?
Once upon a time, when some regional airlines were “wholly owned” it was pretty clear when the Major Airline (MA) said that they wanted to substitute a 737 for that BE99 flight into XYZ, no problem.
What is the distinction between the regional flying the major airline’s colors, having been whipped-sawed against another regional or wholly owned? When Major Airline calls the ATSCC (oh yeah, speed dial and they know the FAA managers by name) and says: Billy/Joe/Bob, “we would like to substitute our flight MA123 for our express/link/connection flight 1234 into XYZ”. ATSCC says, “No problem”.
Hey express/link/connection carrier, how does that affect your “on time performance”? Or your next contract with Major Airlines as an express/link/connection carrier?
09-17-2009, 12:41 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by The Farang
If your at a uncontrolled field you shouldn't be getting your clearance until your ready for departure at the end of the runway.
Why? Get your clearance when the flight plan is in the ATC system. Typically, that is 30 minutes prior to one hour prior to the proposed time.
If ATC is not present on the field, you'll get a "hold for release" at the end of your clearance.
FAA Order 7110.65
4-3-6
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Aircraft identification) RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE
AT (time in hours and/or minutes),
and if required,
IF NOT OFF BY (time), ADVISE (facility) NOT LATER
THAN (time) OF INTENTIONS.
TIME (time in hours, minutes, and nearest quarter minute).
d. When expect departure clearance times
(EDCT) are assigned through traffic management
programs, the departure terminal must, to the extent
possible, plan ground movement of aircraft destined
to the affected airport(s) so that flights are sequenced
to depart no earlier than 5 minutes before, and no later
than 5 minutes after the EDCT. Do not release aircraft
on their assigned EDCT if a ground stop (GS)
applicable to that aircraft is in effect, unless approval
has been received from the originator of the GS.
1. If an aircraft has begun to taxi or requests taxi
in a manner consistent with meeting the EDCT, the
aircraft shall be released. Additional coordination is
not required.
2. If an aircraft requests taxi or clearance for
departure inconsistent with meeting the EDCT
window, ask the pilot to verify the EDCT.
(a) If the pilot's EDCT is the same as the FAA
EDCT, the aircraft is released consistent with the
EDCT.
(b) If the pilot's EDCT is not the same as the
FAA EDCT, refer to Trust and Verify Note below.
3. If an aircraft requests taxi too late to meet the
EDCT, contact the ATCSCC through the appropriate
TMU
3-9-2. DEPARTURE DELAY INFORMATION
USA/USAF/USN NOT APPLICABLE
When gate‐hold procedures are in effect, issue the
following departure delay information as appropriate:
REFERENCEFAAO
JO 7210.3, Para 10-4-3, Gate Hold Procedures.
a. Advise departing aircraft the time at which the
pilot can expect to receive engine startup advisory.
PHRASEOLOGYGATE
HOLD PROCEDURES ARE IN EFFECT. ALL
AIRCRAFT CONTACT (position) ON (frequency) FOR
ENGINE START TIME. EXPECT ENGINE START/TAXI
(time).
b. Advise departing aircraft when to start engines
and/or to advise when ready to taxi.
PHRASEOLOGYSTART
ENGINES, ADVISE WHEN READY TO TAXI,
or
ADVISE WHEN READY TO TAXI.
c. If the pilot requests to hold in a delay absorbing
area, the request shall be approved if space and traffic
conditions permit.
d. Advise all aircraft on GC/FD frequency upon
termination of gate hold procedures.
PHRASEOLOGYGATE
HOLD PROCEDURES NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
09-17-2009, 12:45 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by The Farang
And then make everyone else hold while you get ready to depart..sweet.
Nobody is holding because you (on the ground) have a clearance with "hold for release". Quite the opposite.
Get the clearance, and when you're ready to go, advise the center (or approach). They will only release you when traffic is no factor.
09-17-2009, 04:44 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,882
Originally Posted by Bubba
Once upon a time, when some regional airlines were “wholly owned” it was pretty clear when the Major Airline (MA) said that they wanted to substitute a 737 for that BE99 flight into XYZ, no problem.
What is the distinction between the regional flying the major airline’s colors, having been whipped-sawed against another regional or wholly owned? When Major Airline calls the ATSCC (oh yeah, speed dial and they know the FAA managers by name) and says: Billy/Joe/Bob, “we would like to substitute our flight MA123 for our express/link/connection flight 1234 into XYZ”. ATSCC says, “No problem”.
Hey express/link/connection carrier, how does that affect your “on time performance”? Or your next contract with Major Airlines as an express/link/connection carrier?
What is the distinction between the regional flying the major airline’s colors, having been whipped-sawed against another regional or wholly owned? When Major Airline calls the ATSCC (oh yeah, speed dial and they know the FAA managers by name) and says: Billy/Joe/Bob, “we would like to substitute our flight MA123 for our express/link/connection flight 1234 into XYZ”. ATSCC says, “No problem”.
Hey express/link/connection carrier, how does that affect your “on time performance”? Or your next contract with Major Airlines as an express/link/connection carrier?
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