WSJ Article on "Commuter" Safety
12-01-2009, 08:20 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by iPilot
First off he was a Naval aviator, so those 600 hours were much more action packed than someone who went to ATP or ERAU and flight instructed for 6 months.
Secondly, as was posted by someone else, he didn't upgrade very quick. Chances are he sat sideways for several years, then to the right seat. And probably countless years after that until he took command. All that time he was learning from the seasoned vets in the Captain's chair. Regionals do not have that kind of mentoring structure any more. So today's captains only learned from other regional captains. This is not just a problem with safety or good piloting but mainly a professional problem. If you "grew up" in aviation around guys who have been in the business for 30 years then you'll have a very different perspective on how to behave as an airline pilot.
Secondly, as was posted by someone else, he didn't upgrade very quick. Chances are he sat sideways for several years, then to the right seat. And probably countless years after that until he took command. All that time he was learning from the seasoned vets in the Captain's chair. Regionals do not have that kind of mentoring structure any more. So today's captains only learned from other regional captains. This is not just a problem with safety or good piloting but mainly a professional problem. If you "grew up" in aviation around guys who have been in the business for 30 years then you'll have a very different perspective on how to behave as an airline pilot.
Actually my father in laws father was the Naval Aviator, and that got my in lw to the company, and this post was meant to do exactly what it did. Get you to think about the hard work that our fathers and their's had to put in to get somewhere. hhis pay wasn't that great for several years either, but now everyone feels entitled to make bank just cause they have some student loans to pay off. And amen on those who've had a chance to be impressed upon by an "old timer". Whether aviation related or not, we can all learn a little from our grandfathers. I personally don't like at all, to see even a 500 hour pilot in the cocpkit of anything bigger than a light twin, doing anything other thatn teaching (so he can learn) or flyin boxes and medical waste to get some experience. Nothin' against those guys as pilots or people, just the reality that they shouldn't be in the airline game just yet.
12-01-2009, 08:31 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 638
I just think seeing all the low time people being hired in the last wave is a good indication to how this career has declined. The best the airlines can come up with are the fresh faced wonder kids with big dreams and no idea what this business is all about. The fact that some were hiring with wet commercial certificates shows just how bottom of the barrel they were. Even the "better" regionals had to lower their mins below 1,000 hours to fill the seats. That wouldn't of been a problem if there were lots of qualified individuals wanting to work in the airlines.
12-01-2009, 09:17 AM
#23
Are we there yet??!!
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by EVpilot
Another worthless but damaging article by writers who do not do their research. No surprise there. Regional airlines are not commuter airlines. These are, in my opinion, two different things. If I were flying a Navajo in a scheduled 135 operation, then I would be a commuter airline pilot. I am not criticizing the commuter guys and gals. But what this article refers to is 121 operators and we operate on the same rules. The statistics they provide are useless as they are of too small a scale to be useful. These people have no clue. They addresses for the writers are at the end of the article. I suggest we all email them with our remarks.
12-01-2009, 09:24 AM
#25
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
I think it is a well written report and I can't find any big errors.
Pilots who apply for cockpit jobs at United and other major airlines typically must have 5,000 to 7,000 hours of flying time.
Originally Posted by Thedude
I guess you don't remember that just a few yrs ago all of the commuters err umm...regionals were under 135. A couple accidents pushed the FAA to re-categorize the commuters to 121 so that all airlines would be under one operational umbrella as far as the regs went. The transition happened in the '97 time frame. Many of us that flew at the commuters still refer to the "regionals" as commuters.
12-01-2009, 09:35 AM
#26
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Position: Retired
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by iPilot
Secondly, as was posted by someone else, he didn't upgrade very quick. Chances are he sat sideways for several years, then to the right seat. And probably countless years after that until he took command. All that time he was learning from the seasoned vets in the Captain's chair. Regionals do not have that kind of mentoring structure any more. So today's captains only learned from other regional captains. This is not just a problem with safety or good piloting but mainly a professional problem. If you "grew up" in aviation around guys who have been in the business for 30 years then you'll have a very different perspective on how to behave as an airline pilot.
It is not the 500 hour new hires, it is the Captains who were 500 hour new hires 3 years go. And the "senior" Captains who are anything but.
The travesty is that this is not an industry wide problem. However the regionals with seasoned crews and healthy cultures are being crushed by the major airlines never ending push to find the lowest cost operators.
12-01-2009, 09:49 AM
#27
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by iPilot
I just think seeing all the low time people being hired in the last wave is a good indication to how this career has declined. The best the airlines can come up with are the fresh faced wonder kids with big dreams and no idea what this business is all about. The fact that some were hiring with wet commercial certificates shows just how bottom of the barrel they were. Even the "better" regionals had to lower their mins below 1,000 hours to fill the seats. That wouldn't of been a problem if there were lots of qualified individuals wanting to work in the airlines.
12-01-2009, 09:50 AM
#28
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Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Originally Posted by 742Dash
Bingo.
It is not the 500 hour new hires, it is the Captains who were 500 hour new hires 3 years go. And the "senior" Captains who are anything but.
The travesty is that this is not an industry wide problem. However the regionals with seasoned crews and healthy cultures are being crushed by the major airlines never ending push to find the lowest cost operators.
It is not the 500 hour new hires, it is the Captains who were 500 hour new hires 3 years go. And the "senior" Captains who are anything but.
The travesty is that this is not an industry wide problem. However the regionals with seasoned crews and healthy cultures are being crushed by the major airlines never ending push to find the lowest cost operators.
12-01-2009, 09:54 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 638
Originally Posted by dosbo
There are plenty of qualified individuals, they just aren't willing to work for regional wages. The problem is the mass transfer of flying from career mainline positions to regional jobs with a business model of high turnover to keep employee expenses low.
You can bet if the ATP rule passes and the airlines have to start paying a premium to attract qualified pilots then there would be all kinds of folks coming out of the woodwork to sign up. But it's going to have to take pay and work rule changes for that to happen.
12-01-2009, 11:50 AM
#30
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Position: N/A
Posts: 637
I don't understand why everyone is still so caught up on the hours thing. The days of the 250-300 hour new hire are over, and will likely never be seen again. Not only has congress passed legislation mandating higher time pilots, but airlines now have a healthy pool of experienced people to choose from. Even if we ran into another of those so called "pilot shortages" legally the airlines couldn't pull directly from the low time pilot factory pool again. So why is the media, and people on this board still whining and complaining about it. Would it make you happy if the FAA and airlines went through all the airline records and purged everyone hired with less than 1000-1500 hours? There have been small waves of low time pilots being hired in the past (directly into mainlines no less) and I don't see planes falling out of the sky left and right.
Did any pilot on any of those 3 recent pilot error regional accidents the media always cites have less than 1500 hours? No.
The battle of the hour requirement regs is over, now can't we focus on more important things like duty/rest regs, pay, and most importantly training?
Did any pilot on any of those 3 recent pilot error regional accidents the media always cites have less than 1500 hours? No.
The battle of the hour requirement regs is over, now can't we focus on more important things like duty/rest regs, pay, and most importantly training?
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