WSJ Article on "Commuter" Safety
12-01-2009, 03:35 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by 742Dash
Yes, both members of the Colgan crew had over 1500 hours. But their times were still low, especially in the case of a Captain in charge of a large and complex aircraft. And while I don’t know what the culture is/was a Colgan, it certainly does not sound like there is/was a cadre of seasoned, high time Captains serving as role models.
The crews with AA at LIT and Colombia had more, way more experience. Guess what? Dead people.
Sorry, but along the lines of a former post, it's not just higher time that will solve the issue.
12-01-2009, 03:52 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by EVpilot
Another worthless but damaging article by writers who do not do their research. No surprise there. Regional airlines are not commuter airlines. These are, in my opinion, two different things. If I were flying a Navajo in a scheduled 135 operation, then I would be a commuter airline pilot. I am not criticizing the commuter guys and gals. But what this article refers to is 121 operators and we operate on the same rules. The statistics they provide are useless as they are of too small a scale to be useful. These people have no clue. They addresses for the writers are at the end of the article. I suggest we all email them with our remarks.
12-01-2009, 04:47 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by deltabound
"Some of the most difficult routes and grueling schedules are flown by pilots with the least experience and training."
That's really all you need to know about this article. I think that statement is 100% accurate.
What can Congress do? Well, as a pilot, I'd say be careful what you wish for . . .
That's really all you need to know about this article. I think that statement is 100% accurate.
What can Congress do? Well, as a pilot, I'd say be careful what you wish for . . .
In all seriousness, the amount of T/Os and ldgs and the duty time (fatigue) definitely should be factored in. In fact I'm surprised with all the supposedly inept newbies out there, we aren't having more accidents.
12-01-2009, 04:59 PM
#44
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Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
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Originally Posted by TPROP4ever
The answer the average "Joe" would give is something like this: I want a round trip ticket in first class from NY to LA for $99, and I want to be able to carry 600 lbs of luggage, 4 carry-ons and those damn flight attendants better wait on me hand and foot. Oh wait I forgot my kids medicine can you get my checked bag from below so I can give little Joey his Riddilin, oh never mind, Ill just let him be a little hellion during the flight. Oh and if you dont give me what I want, I'll talk to the WSJ and tell them what a horrible airline this is??? What did you ask about pilots again?
12-01-2009, 05:18 PM
#45
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According to Sully's book, he was hired in the 80's by PSA (not a regional at the time) as a second officer on the 727 for 200$ a week. Major airlines hired pilots in the 60's with less than 500 hours (UAL). This year, a mainline crew with over 30,000 hrs collectively overflew their destination by 150 miles and the very same week another mainline crew landed on a taxiway in ATL of all places. A mainline pilot attempted to report for work under the influence and by the way a regional airline crew lost control of an airplane and flew it into the ground (cjc 3407). Of all of these incidents I personally knew the ca of 3407. The crew of that flight made horrible mistakes which resulted in the first fatal accident in this country in a few years. The problems we face today in this industry are really no different than the problems faced over the history of this industry. At the end of the day there are risks involved in flying and also at the end of the day no matter how old or young, no matter how much experience you do or don't have doesn't change the fact that we, a couple of human beings (which by the way, can occasionally make a mistake or two) and the weakest link in the cockpit. Thats right, whether you work for a major or a regional, no matter how long you have been doing this, and no matter how much you do or don't make, you could be the one that ends up killing everybody. All we can do is show up for work every day we are scheduled and do the absolute best we can that given day.
12-01-2009, 05:55 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by brianb
That doesn't make it right. I agree with what you are saying but I believe that if a customer wants all of what you stated for $99, he is a minority. I honestly don't think people will sacrifice safety for saving a few bucks. Again, ask yourself the same question, would you? Then again, some of the airlines ( regional, among others) have been very clever when it comes to advertising their pilots experience. I remember a United Airlines commercial several years that esposed the vast experience of all their pilots only to find out they were hiring 300-400hr interns and other low time folks. I know its tough but I try to stay positive about the aviation profession and can only hope that one day your average "joe" will understand how important our job is.
12-01-2009, 06:08 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by brianb
That doesn't make it right. I agree with what you are saying but I believe that if a customer wants all of what you stated for $99, he is a minority. I honestly don't think people will sacrifice safety for saving a few bucks. Again, ask yourself the same question, would you? Then again, some of the airlines ( regional, among others) have been very clever when it comes to advertising their pilots experience. I remember a United Airlines commercial several years that esposed the vast experience of all their pilots only to find out they were hiring 300-400hr interns and other low time folks. I know its tough but I try to stay positive about the aviation profession and can only hope that one day your average "joe" will understand how important our job is.
12-01-2009, 09:59 PM
#48
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
History
Low time pilots have always been hired. There is no direct correlation between low time pilots and accidents. The military hires pilots with Zero time and within a year and a few hundred hours they are fighter pilots. Europe and in other parts of the world they commonly hire low time pilots. At different times in our airlines history low time pilots have been hired to no ill aftermath.
The failure here was in the certification process at the airlines. It is very difficult for an airline to get rid of a bad pilot. Political correctness, the union and fear of a lawsuit keep pilots in the job long after they should have been let go.
There are thousands of pilots crossing the country right now with as little as a 3 month cram course academy flight training program and king tape education. We do not have planes raining down out of the sky all over the nation. It is not a question of training or experience.
Skyhigh
The failure here was in the certification process at the airlines. It is very difficult for an airline to get rid of a bad pilot. Political correctness, the union and fear of a lawsuit keep pilots in the job long after they should have been let go.
There are thousands of pilots crossing the country right now with as little as a 3 month cram course academy flight training program and king tape education. We do not have planes raining down out of the sky all over the nation. It is not a question of training or experience.
Skyhigh
12-01-2009, 10:03 PM
#49
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Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Bullseye
Originally Posted by iPilot
I just think seeing all the low time people being hired in the last wave is a good indication to how this career has declined. The best the airlines can come up with are the fresh faced wonder kids with big dreams and no idea what this business is all about. The fact that some were hiring with wet commercial certificates shows just how bottom of the barrel they were. Even the "better" regionals had to lower their mins below 1,000 hours to fill the seats. That wouldn't of been a problem if there were lots of qualified individuals wanting to work in the airlines.
Skyhigh
12-01-2009, 11:58 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Low time pilots have always been hired. There is no direct correlation between low time pilots and accidents. The military hires pilots with Zero time and within a year and a few hundred hours they are fighter pilots. Europe and in other parts of the world they commonly hire low time pilots. At different times in our airlines history low time pilots have been hired to no ill aftermath.
The failure here was in the certification process at the airlines. It is very difficult for an airline to get rid of a bad pilot. Political correctness, the union and fear of a lawsuit keep pilots in the job long after they should have been let go.
There are thousands of pilots crossing the country right now with as little as a 3 month cram course academy flight training program and king tape education. We do not have planes raining down out of the sky all over the nation. It is not a question of training or experience.
Skyhigh
The failure here was in the certification process at the airlines. It is very difficult for an airline to get rid of a bad pilot. Political correctness, the union and fear of a lawsuit keep pilots in the job long after they should have been let go.
There are thousands of pilots crossing the country right now with as little as a 3 month cram course academy flight training program and king tape education. We do not have planes raining down out of the sky all over the nation. It is not a question of training or experience.
Skyhigh
There are thousands of drunks driving tonight who WON'T get in an accident. That does not mean we should allow drunks to drive. As one who came to the regionals with ten times the "minimums" flying Caravans and piston twins, I was (and still am) learning almost every day. The notion that experience has no value is just plane wrong. Take Brett Favre, now he is a great QB, but look back at his time with the Falcons: same guy today, but with a lot more gray hairs.
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