Bingo! At least on the first part. More qualified? Don't think so, nor can I think of one reason why you would say this.

Are you suggestion that someone whose heart is really not in the job...a drone, so to speak...is going to be better qualified for that job? Good luck explaining that!

True enough. Airline flying was an aftermath for me. After flying fighters for a career in the AF, watching an autopilot function left a lot to be desired. But in no way am I suggesting that others felt the same way. And, after all was said and done, it was still flying and that put the job way ahead of anything else.

Had you remained at Horizon, you could have upgraded by now. That puts your potential income far above the $52M you mentioned earlier. Maybe you just like expensive bread. If all you are saying is that aviation may not support expensive life styles, then carry on.

There you go with this 'real job' stuff again. Your employment at Horizon was a real job. I bet it was one that many of the young folks here would like to have. Had you remained there and not gone off chasing the 'big bucks', you would be taking down at least $80M a year right now. By the end, you would be making well over $100M at today's pay rates. Most folks think that kind of income is a 'real job'.

Crazy
 

Look it up yourself. 8 year captain pay at horizon air 52K. The average teacher pay in my state is almost that and they get a full retirement and the entire summer off. I have an ex-military pilot friend who has been a cop for the last 7 years and is making over 85K. College grads in several fields can expect to earn more than that on their first job.

52K is next to nothing to a 40 year old with a family of 6 in the city. You are just flat ignoring the obvious now. Go to the airline page of www.airlinepilotcentralcom and click the regionals button. I worked for Horizon Air and know how a captain lives there. If they have a stay at home wife and few other resources it means living in a two bedroom apartment with a ten year old minivan.

I can't imagine what a new hire must think now. The price of a starter home has jumped in SEA and PDX to almost 300K. Their contract is up for renegotiation and the company it talking of pay cuts. Good times. Great career. I should have stayed. :rolleyes:

SKyHigh

It's not about me feeling superior! It's about you feeling inferior. Haven't you figured that out yet?

It is less common these days...not because of anything the individual does. It's all supply and demand. What happened in the 80s wasn't a fairytale by any means. Hiring standards were much higher than today, and there was no lack of people trying to get in. Those that got hired by and large earned it.

While today's hiring climate is different, it is no nightmare. Nightmares are scary dreams but they are not real. What is real is a depressed aviation business environment with that industry seemingly experiencing a major shift in the way it does business. 100 seat regional aircraft are redefining this career, and the smart folks are the ones who realize this right now and get on the train before it leaves the station.

You should have stayed at Horizon.

True enough. Not too many majors hiring, and not too many military pilots seem interested in the regionals. If they were, they get hired in an instant.

You are uninformed.

People pass up recalls for a number of reasons. The most common is that they have made a new life and don't want to give that up for the uncertainty of something like UAL.

That is not true of AA. When furloughees get recalled to mainline AA, they usually go back. It's simply a matter of the difference between career expectations at AA as compared to UAL.

Where are the regionals going? Straight up, that's where!! The 100 seat airliner such as the Embraer 170/190 is redefining the marketplace. Mainline companies such as USAir/America West are already flying them. Others such as NWA are studying them. LCCs such as JetBlue have done very well with them.

I do not know of a single 'senior regional' pilot who has quit to leave aviation. Not one. They have gone on to the majors, but that's not quite what you were suggesting. Not that some may have...but your statement implies something not in evidence. When you can come up with such evidence, then post it.

I did. Right here:

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...rizon_air.html

It shows 8 years CA pay going from $88 to $62 per hour depending on equipment. Even the low side of that works out over $52k.

Starter homes over $300? You need to readjust your idea of a lifestyle!

Horizon
 

I wish I had your calculator. Horizon has a very slow progression. Had I stayed I would be in the left seat in the Dash 200. There isn't an AA pilot who would show up for what Horizon pays.


Lets do this again; After almost 25 years invested and untold financial losses at 40 years old I would be making: $62 X 70 credit hours =4340 X 12 months = $52,080/year less Taxes = take home pay of $42,705.60


Horizon has limited opportunities for overtime and I don't count per diem. Had I stayed that is the best I could of hoped for in regards to pay. Not nearly enough to support a starter house, fund a retirement, pay homage to the keybank loan (I didn't have a loan, I earned my way through but others"), support a family, take a simple vacation. It is below the point where government assistance is offered.

It takes a massive investment in time and money to reach most regionals. To earn less than a starting plumber is rediculious. Horizon will enter into negotiations soon. I am sure that they will lock up the current contract for 5 to 10 years and let inflation turn it into a pay cut.

You are right, pilots need to readjust their lifestyle expectations to one of near poverty. I never signed up to be poor. My intent was for a better life and still is.

SkyHigh

Thank you for this exchange. I have thoroughly enjoyed myself. You are a worthy opponent.

Specifically, my opinion is that if you have taken on the repsonsibility of fatherhood, than you should not be expending your efforts at a regional for $20k a year while your wife and kids are struggling at home. Just my opinion. When I flew full time it didn't impact any one but me, I'm single and debt free. If I were married and had kids, I would try to be home every night for their sake.

Right on !
 

The blessing of fatherhood comes with inherent responsibilities and expectations. Most airline and flying jobs today are in conflict with that pledge. To be a father takes sacrifice. Often that means supplanting our own desires for the benefit of the family. To intentionally accept a brutal schedule along with poverty wages is irresponsible at best.

SKyHigh

And people wonder why aviation has such a high divorce rate.

Exactly. Although to be fair, my parents are working on their 55th year of marriage and raised 5 kids, 3 of which are pilots. I still stand by my opinion.

To begin with, count per diem. That puts you at about $50M. It doesn't take into account flying above the guaranty. Since you were in this for the money, I can only assume you would be adding to your monthly hours. Many of us do...or did.

What kind of government assistance is offered to people who make $50M a year?

'Poverty' is clearly defined in this country. $50M a year is nowhere close. Even on the Left Coast. I realize it won't pay for a new Volvo every year or let you shop in those yuppie food stores where everything is organic, but you'll find a way to scrape by on fifty grand.

Comparing pilot pay scales to a plumber's is pointless. If that is what you want, then go be a plumber.

The fact is that in this business we are paid what we are worth. Now that the unions have been largely stripped of their power, that's the unfortunate reality. It's not what many want to hear, but it's what they will find. Also, it doesn't take Chuck Yeager to fly a typical airliner. Most reasonably experienced pilots with some multi-engine time can make the grade. But some do not...and it's seldom simply a matter of hours or equipment. The days of the "The High and The Mighty" are over...and I'm not that sure they ever really existed. Back in the glory days of the early 60s, the legacy carriers were putting twenty-somethings into the left seat of 707s. Not much has changed in principle.

So...if someone wants to be like John Wayne in that picture, then strap on tight...it's going to be a bumpy ride. On the other hand, if Bill Gates is what you have in mind, then go back to school.

Well, even you've admitted that you aren't trying to sway the folks that really love flying.

You and I have done a lot of the same kinds of flying. The difference between you and I, is that all things being equal, I would rather be doing the fun stuff than the airline job any day of the week, and twice on sundays. I suspect there are a lot of others like me out there as well.

Desires differ for everyone, but in the future, if you wonder why you aren't getting through to some of us, just refer to a few of your statements above. I won't say you got into aviation for the wrong reasons, but I will say that getting into a career field that you really don't like that much is a pretty good way to set yourself up to fail.

I think you made a good decision getting out of aviation, and you probably should have done it a long time before you did. If you can encourage others with the same motivations as you to seek their fortunes elsewhere, I think you'd be doing them and the industry a great service, and I wish you the best of luck.

RL