Question
 

My point is that in the modern button monkey world of airline flying the regionals have learned that they can hire virtual high school kids to operate them. Experience has no value in the regionals anymore. One day the majors might catch on.

I am not bitter towards airline people per say just the delusional ones who think that they are worth more than they really are. In the 50's they had a real job to do. They were breaking trail for the rest of the industry. They developed an almost astronaut level of status and respect. Now the job has been reduced to that of human automation yet a few are clinging to residual homage owed to past aviators. I believe that these self promotional pilots are the same ones who proudly appear at universities and aviation conventions to stuff their chest with hot air and proclaim an antiquated image of the profession. The truth is far less glamorous and the truth would save a few from making a big mistake. They should have guys like Skyhigh give a few speeches but that doesnt sell text books or avgas.

SkyHigh

Is this still going??????????

This is maybe the most sensible thing I have heard.

OK, noted. Airline pilots aren't space shuttle pilots. I will even agree with the fact that airline flying is very far from the most exciting or difficult flying I have ever done, but for that matter neither was flying 207s in Alaska, which I have also done.

Here's the thing, I think, that you and I and probably others are going to disagree on. Sounds like your childhood dream was to fly airliners. That's just weird to me. I didn't get into the aviation business to fly airliners, and in fact I think almost any young kid that decides that his life's goal is to become an airline pilot probably isn't really as interested in flying as he is the idea of a big paycheck and an easy lifestyle. Just my opinion of course, but any 18 year old that aspires to wear a tie to work is a strange 18 year old. Personally, when I was just starting out, I wanted to fly fighters, helicopters, float and ski planes, cropdusters, and anything else fun I could get my hands on before I got too old and had to go fly an airliner.

I have done all of that (and more), and while I was doing it I expected to work hard and not get paid much to do it. And I did and I didn't, most of the time. Now I'm an airline guy because I'm old, and that's what old guys do. By the way, I didn't go straight to the airlines from the military, although I had a chance to, and I sweated more than a little as a consequence. It is a blue collar job, and I still wouldn't trade any of it for the best desk job you can show me.

P.S. I might trade some of the 727 panel time.

This post is meant for anyone who may be "swayed" by the stange and random writings above...

While this career has tarnished a bit from the 50s, at least in the US, it still commands a lot of respect. You have to remember that the airline industry is evolving in a way it has never before.. Of the 20 most profitable airlines worldwide, there is NOT ONE US carrier, and the gap is growing. It is sad the the mismanagment of the majors has reslted in the whoring out of the regionals, and created a race to the bottom.. (not to sound like Dwane Woerth) What we need to remember is that this is just one aspect of this business.. We still have companies where we have a nice schedule and make a great wage.. (UPS for instance) We still have regionals where regardless of aircraft size, pilots enjoy life and manage to live on not so great wages. (BigSky for instance) Then we have the rest of the world, where pilots are actually regarded quite highly. Where airlines are growing at record pace, and MAKING MONEY..

I am not going to spend hours debating how one attains the means to enjoy an airline job.. I will say that if you have a good attitude, and educate yourself on the facts, and not the rantings of those who have failed, you can and will love this life!!

As for me:
Flew in Alaska, made nothing and enjoyed it.. Made life-long friends
Flew cargo, made next to nothing and enjoyed it.. Made life-long friends
Flew for a great regional, made very little and enjoyed it.. Made life-long friends
Flew for a low-cost, made descent money and enjoyed it.. Made life-longs friends
Flying for an overseas carrier, making pretty descent money and enjoying it.. oh yeah, and making life-long friends..

cheers

EKBC

Glad to
 

In reponse to shackone's query's:


Self-serving and selfish in what respect? And how is staying in a flying job any different than staying in any other job?

If you're staying in a job that keeps you below your earning potential, that is selfish. Does your family enjoy the lifestyle of their choice and of your capacity to provide, or are you having fun flying at their expense?


Since you are promoting your background, what is it? If you think it is relevant, let's see what you have.

Grew up with a professional pilot father (20k plus hours and counting).
I have flown most of my life, and have 3 type ratings, 4500 hours. So basically I've been involved in professional aviation my entire life. I have a demonstrated earning power outside of aviation of mid 6 figures, and within aviation it's a fraction of that. My sense is that if my earning power outside of aviation is what it is, yours is probably even more. I don't even have a college education, and I paid for all of my own flying myself, never took a dime from my parents.

What sacrifice of others? Whom are you referring to?
Who takes care of your home and family while you're away?


What makes you think flying is not a 'real job'? Are you unaware that seniority is what many look forward to in order to bid a schedule that is '9 to 5'?

Is it a real job when you spend a typical $100k for an education and training, and make $20k to start if you're lucky for the first 5-10 years? Not to mention training contracts you have to sign. Usually when someone invests $100k in preparation for a job, they're called Doctors.

Subsistence wage?
I know many professional, type rated, captain qualified pilots that have to do landscaping on their time off to pay the bills.


And by the way shackone, you seem to be a very honorable and respectable guy. I admire your respect for aviation and your success in it as well. I just have a different view of aviation in terms of a livelihood..

Diffrences
 

I love flying but after making such a huge investment it was important to be able to earn back my initial cash and time outlay and then some. I ended up with some incredible jobs in aviation. I flew the Alaskan bush in multiple airframe types making mostly off airport landings, dropped plane loads of smokejumpers, watched as fishing boats crashed into each other as a fish spotter, was jerked awake at 3am to fly Learjets to small islands in SE AK as a med-evac pilot, was paid to fly an Aero Commander from Alaska to Texas at an altitude of less than 200 feet in search of wildfires. And a few more hair raising, life threatening and adventurous jobs.

I would have traded it all at any time to be able to put on a clean white shirt in the morning and to know that I was building a future for myself. I didn't set out for an adventure in aviation but that is what I got. Most of the time I was miserable and simply trying to live through it and to get to the next job. You are right I wasn't really interested in the challenge of aviation, but I don't think that makes me less qualified to be an airline pilot. In fact I think it made me more qualified.

People who fly for the airlines shouldn't love flying so much since you will be bored to tears and have few opportunities to find aggressive hand flying satisfaction. I was perfectly suited and looking forward to a long and boring career as a line pilot. To me aviation is fun but primarily my intent was for it to be a bread winner. Flying was a big part of my youth but my life's dream was to have a home, friends and a family. I had hoped to use my career as the foundation to build a full life upon. In the end in my opinion if it cannot provide a financial return suitable enough to be worthy of the initial investment then it really isn't a profession, it is more of a working hobby. I needed a real job I got an adventure instead.

SkyHigh

Nice color, so we'll use it!

If you're staying in a job that keeps you below your earning potential, that is selfish. Does your family enjoy the lifestyle of their choice and of your capacity to provide, or are you having fun flying at their expense?

Only if you think that your main responsibility in life is to provide an ever-increasing level of life style for others. Perhaps you do. I don't. As far as my career was concerned, my family married me, not vice versa. In the process, they were well cared for. But was my primary focus on advancing my own career objectives?

You bet. I don't shy away from that one bit. By working for something 'bigger and better', I knew my family would share in the rewards. And they did.


I paid for all of my own flying myself, never took a dime from my parents.

You have earned an attaboy for that! But this statement sorta runs contrary to the basic money argument that you and others are making, doesn't it? So what you are saying is that success in aviation doesn't have to come at the expense of hundred thousand dollar debt loads!

Who takes care of your home and family while you're away?

My wife and son. I don't get your point. The same question could be posed to the guy who goes to a '9 to5' job. What sort of 'care' is needed that my being away affects?


Is it a real job when you spend a typical $100k for an education and training, and make $20k to start if you're lucky for the first 5-10 years?

LOL!!! That sounds like much of life. My AF pilot training cost much more than that...and yet I was paid $400 a month as a second lieutenant. Looking back on it, I was probably overpaid at first!!

Yes it is a 'real job' to start at the bottom of the ladder. Even doctors do that.


I know many professional, type rated, captain qualified pilots that have to do landscaping on their time off to pay the bills.

What a laugh!

I don't. But I did notice you used the words 'captain qualified'...that's not quite the same as 'Captain'!!

I do know a few who work on the side. They are the ones with multiple marriages!!


I just have a different view of aviation in terms of a livelihood..

And that is the main point here.

Some see aviation as a means to make money. Others see it as a professional opportunity to do something they love...fly planes. Since there are no guarantees in this business, either type may end up disappointed. But it's the person who is focused only on the money that runs the greater risk. Now if that is what you and SH are trying to say, then have at it.

But leave me out of it. I was in it for the love of flying...not money.

For the love of Money
 

Not only should people find a career that they love but it is important that it also love you back. No one starts out with the dream of becoming a proctologist but they do since I am sure it pays well. Pilots have beaten wife syndrome. They can take a severe beating from aviation and when asked "why do they stay" the answer is often "but I love it".

SkyHigh

Shackone
 

It is easy at 60 to be smug about your career and to feel superior. You had a fairly easy ride. USAF funded training a full military career then strait into the majors. Whats not to love about that? You always earned a living and was well taken care of. My point is that your experience it becoming far less common. You are an example of the fairytale that was, we are an example of the nightmare that is. Even military pilots don't have a sure thing anymore. They are out there fighting for a piece of the pie like everyone else.

UAL and a few of the others are recalling pilots and a large amount are passing it up. The regionals are experiencing some turn over but no one knows where they are going. Most likely they are leaving senior regional jobs to work in other fields. If flying is so great why would perfectly good people walk away from it? Times have changed. Often it is senior major airline captains who are the last to know.

SkyHigh