Multi Requirement
 

What do you think will be the multi time requirements when most everyone starts hiring again? I'm sitting at like 1500tt and 100me. Building total time little by little. I'm just worried about the multi. Ive been trying any chance I get to gain more multi time but its pretty hard to come by without buying it (around here anyways). I'm not even going to do that.

When hiring eventually picks up itll be pretty high...alot of 121 guys still on the street so expect about 2000/500

A million...

No, really, stay single-engine -- you'll be happier in the long-run LoL

And honestly, if they are not current on everything, the street is where they should stay. There have been a lot of people stuck in CFI positions that have been paying their dues. Just sayn'. I have a feeling it will be high...somewhere around 200-500 ME depending on the airline. TT somewhere in the ball park of 1000-1500. Just look at what Eagle has now. That should be a good indication.

So you think all those guys that got thrown to the curb should not get the oppourtunity to come back because they are not current, probably because they could not find a job. How long have you been a CFI, a couple of years, its not going to be 1 year as a CFI then RJ captain in a couple of years for a long time bud.

Nice attitude! Better pray you never get furloughed!

Yes, I'm sure the CFI with 1000/200 in 172's and seminoles is WAY more qualified than a guy that has been furloughed for a year...:confused:

Lol, nice...

Hate to break it to you but a pilot who has completed 121 training and flown a few hundred (or thousand) 121 turbine hours is worth about ten CFI's to an airline hiring department...they will take a rusty turbojet pilot over a current CFI any day.


As to the original question...

When hiring starts, expect competitive times to be 2000+/500+ with 121 turbine time.

When things settle down a little, expect 1500/200. That might take over a year.

Not to mention that a pilot furloughed for a year can be brought back online (or into the same type) in 1-2 weeks of training (depending on time away and the airlines Training manual) instead of 4-6 weeks for the new hire. And your "currency" gets taken care of then.

As far as the hiring requirement, as long as you have the ATP mins you're going to be ahead of the latest batch of zero to heroes.

...and if those CFI's aren't current in 121 op's, then CFI is where they should stay. Just sayin'

...(see how that logic is a 2-way street?)...

The hiring is coming. I feel it in my gut.

Oh wait, that was just a fart.

Not that you have ANYONE on your side anyway, but I'd be willing to put 500 bucks that a furloughed 121 guy is going to do 200% better on his first sim than a CFI with no 121 experience. Not saying the CFI can't pass the training program but with previous experience it's much more of a known quantity.
I know it sucks to be stuck as a CFI when guys you know went to the regionals, but I've been furloughed twice now and I'd venture to say I would have rather been continously employed as an instructor. I guess the grass is always greener.
As for the original topic, probably 1500 and 500 for awhile and will probably go down once the backlog starts to clear out in a year or two of solid hiring.

Thanks a lot... I now have to clean the beer off my monitor and keyboard

Wow, is your name chuck by any chance. I bet this guy can fly the **** out of a 172. And don't worry XXXX airline, i'm a pro at turns around a point so you are covered there.


What everyone else is saying is correct. A prior 121 guy will always have a leg up no matter what. He has passed 121 training before and will probably do it again with ease. I will bet it will take a couple years to get the furloughed guys back so you better get comfy or meet some people who can get you into an interview.

BTW, telling people that guys on the street is where they should stay will probably not make you too many friends to walk in your resume. Don't bother sending it to me for one.

Ironically dude, you are right. A lot of more qualified people are losing out to no experience CFIs because they are not current. A furloughed pilot has a shelf life of about 6 months, 1 for some airlines, before they expire and have to wait for a recall. I'm with the others though, there is no comparison between a CFI and a guy with airline experience, even with no currency. It's night and day. An RJ is a little different than a 172.

Just to mix up the pot a bit (and not trying to take sides), which to you think has a better chance: a furloughed, non-current pilot with 700 hr TT, SIC typed but sat reserve so little time it type vs. a current 1500hr MEI with a couple hundred multi ready to take an ATP check. Just curious what everyone thinks....

When Eagle started hiring, didn't they have a requirement about having a flying job for the past 12 months? Not sure if that was a requirement or a preference. If it was a requirement, that would really be bad for a 121er on the street with couple hundred turbine time.

Anyone who has previously completed 121 training will likely be preferred by the airlines...much lower training risk.

No flame intended, but what about a current 135 guy with 1000hrs multi vs. non current 121 furlough? Just Curious what the thoughts are on that.

To me the way the industry discriminates against very experienced part 91 or part 135 pilots is just plain ridiculous, I have a good friend that is currently flying a GV, he was between jobs about a year ago and although he has over 12,000 hours with over 6,000 jet PIC (GIV, GV, Falcon 2000, Hawker) has 500 hours as an F/O on the B-762 and flies an A/C that is not that far off in weight from a 737, A320 literally all over the world, I couldn't even get him an interview because of the part of the regs under which he flies, but a guy flying F/O on a 737 domestically with little PIC and little international experience qualifies because of the part of the regs under which he flies. Sorry for the rant but I'm I the only one who thinks that is just plain stupid? Out of my going on three decades in aviation about half of it was flying corporate and I flew with folks back in those days that I wouldn't hesitate for one second to put my family in the back of their plane as DEC's on a heavy jet on their very first flight out of OJT.

Since I seemed to have started a flame war here on this thread, let me explain two things.

1) I know of way too many dudes who jumped on the bandwagon and got in the door who were the 500 hr wonders that are furloughed. Most of those dudes could not get a gig because they BURNED BRIDGES or they just could care less to instruct because it was below them. They are not doing anything to further their careers as pilots and belong on the street.

I hear it way too much on here that people are just casually collecting a check from the unemployment office, and sound like they could care less about finding any flying gig. My hats off to those who are in the trenches doing the right things they need to do (jump pilots, instructors, box haulers) to get their time in.

2) Don't assume that everyone on here who is a CFI is some young buck with acne who doesn't know how the industry works. I may not have RJ training, but I do have other training in my hip pocket that would help a great deal with RJ school. I know the difference between a 172 and a Jet, but thanks for your sarcasm. I am not going to sit here and discus my resume, because that would just not be polite. But I don't need any of you people to do a damn thing to walk in my resume, but thanks for the thought. And hell yeah I can fly the XXXX out of a 172...can you? Everyone on here needs to loosen up the belt just a little bit, myself included. This industry sucks, and if you don't have a back up plan, well then you are just in quicksand.

this is a terrific statement

It's not exactly discrimination...

There is some difference in handling between an RJ and a heavy...but even a G-V is waaaay closer to the RJ end of the spectrum as far as that goes. Just because it's a "heavy" in the 91 world doesn't really relate. A CRJ-900 or an E-190 are both comparable to a G-V.

International experience is good...but most domestic airlines do not really place a premium on that as far as I can tell (UPS does, but they like heavy time too).

What the airlines really like are two things...

- Somebody who is familiar with 121 operations. They tend to be more comfortable with an entry level pilot who is used to multiple legs with short layovers in Duluth as opposed to a guy who does one long leg and then spends four days living the expense account life at a premium resort. Same reason that 91/135 operators tend to be leery of airline pilots. But really...how long was your buddy going to sit reserve in LGA once the economy picked up and the 91 "heavy" operators start calling? Yeah, that's what I thought :rolleyes: We all know what the G-V background is worth, and it's more than domestic narrowbody reserve.

- Internal recs. Since a lot of major pilots come from regionals, they bring their buddies along behind them. There are even some majors which used to prefer pilots from a certain military branch...no logic there, just cultural.

No, we want to help, please tell us your name so that we can tell our airlines what a valuable addition you would be since you can fly the XXXX out of a 172. :rolleyes:

Oh really? why don't you tell me in all your wisdom that evidently surpasses mine, what is the difference? remember that you are discussing this in a forum with other pilots and not in a bar with a dumb blond! You fly your airplane from your seat forward and that is the simple truth, at its essence flying a high performance jet is the same (inertia from a higher mass and the aerodynamic difference between wing mounted engines vs. fuselage mounted engines taken into consideration) regardless of weight. The whole "light vs. heavy" is just a mental masturbation that we have engaged in because we just want to be "special" but at the end of the day we can't lie to ourselves, or other pilots for that matter.

This just told me that you have no experience in the corporate world. If anything part 121 is a LOT easier than part 91 or 135 flying, you have a team of people that are dedicated to do all the additional stuff besides flying the airplane, part 121 flying is easy compared to part 91 or 135. Like I said, 15 years flying corporate and 15 years flying in the airlines have given me the experience to talk with authority about the matter.

You are thinking the US market where the airline industry is so degraded that part 91 jobs are paying more, that is not the case in other parts of the world where my friend was applying.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree

Chuck Yeager period dot

I probably have buddies at your airline, so let me know your name so I can have them tell you. Listen, I'm not here to make friends because I have them already. But if you are going to try and make subtle attacks on dudes for having a strong and unpopular opinion on things, that shows character. I understand that a lot of dudes on here have bro's that are on the street, and I have compassion for anyone who loses a job without it being their doing. But I do not have compassion for dudes who collect a check and sit on the couch with no desire to get back down in the trenches and do some stalls and falls. That would require two things, 1) Determination and 2) Luck to find a school that will take them knowing that they will be gone as soon as they get their number called.
And those are the people I respect. So if you are going to show solidarity and turn a blind eye to those who have no determination to further their professionalism, then YOU are part of the problem. I understand this is a tough market for even CFI's, but where there is a will there's a way.

What I am advocating is that if the airlines are going to have this standard where they are going to hold high minimums they should consider everyone who has a flying job and high flight time first. The dude that got furloughed after two months of being on reserve AND who has not been flying for a year plus, should not be ahead of the dude that has been teaching stud's in the clouds on IFR plans every day, and risking their necks to let students go from VFR to IFR pilots for the past couple of years. Tell me who you would rather be flying with? Dude who has been sitting on the couch popping bon bons collecting a check, or the guy who is a go getter who has been teaching for ~2 years that is above ATP mins? Are you honestly asserting that young furlough who was fed enough bananas to pass a 121 will be better than someone who has maybe 141 schooling, college degree, military background and maybe a little life experience? I don't think so. Wow, talk about a run on sentence....

I am gonna get off the soap box here in a hot second, but here is the deal, I am not here to **** in anyone's Cheerios, but I am tired of seeing people on here talk about how they feel that every single dude who's furloughed deserves to get hired to another airline over someone who is well qualified with high PIC time. Who cares if it is in a 172 or a C90. They have paid their dues somehow. If you are furloughed and don't have a current flying job, what have you been doing to improve yourself? That is my question. If you can answer that better than I can, then you deserve the job.

1500 TT 500 ME Current flying job or recent relevant flight time. Thats my opinion. And PM me if you want my name. I'll give it to ya. :)

That alone is funny... I'd say 19-22 age range. If not then please do yourself a favor and stop reading the comic books and pick up "Northstar Over My Shoulder" by Bob Buck... :D

Well, you're obviously very sure that your opinion is the right one, that can really only come with youth or stupidity. That said, two things about the furloughed guys you're missing. 1) People may say things like "there are still alot of furloughs" not because they necessarily think that they will automatically be hired before you at another airline but also because like it or not they WILL be recalled before any hiring takes place at their airline. So until the slack is taken up by the furloughs at a particular airline they won't be hiring no matter how hot you think you are. 2) My first 121 program had five people fail of a class of 18, I passed. 12 other people passed too, that's a known quantity. You haven't gone to a 121 training event probably, therefore we can't speculate whether you'll pass or not.

Lastly, I hate to be the guy that has to say something about this, but you have sooooo little respect for furloughed guys (who lost their jobs through no fault of their own) that I can only hope that you get to walk in their shoes one day. It's a real jerk thing for me to wish that upon you, but you need to grow a compassion bone and nothing helps that like a little first hand experience.

I don't think anyone made that assumption based on if someone is a CFI. However, based on your words, most of us has come to the CONCLUSION that you're just a young buck with acne that doesn't know how the industry works. If you're not young, then you're just physically an older buck with a young buck's pimply faced attitude and ignorance.

I'm a CFI and can understand how you feel. That being said a pilot that has passed 121 training is a better option then the ones who haven't. They know that pilot can pass the training required. They also know that that pilot already has the experience necessary to operate under 121 rules. They also know that that pilot knows what he is getting into when it comes to the 121 world.

A CFI that has never been with an airline is an unknown. Who knows if he will get through training at all let alone really get proficient.

On a side not: The way you are writing isn't helping your argument. All the "dudes" and "bros" make you sound like a kid and not a professional.

I hope 1,500 TT and 1,000 Multi or even 1,500 Multi would be nice

What about someone who has been furloughed but never "collected a check" but instead traveled and actually used flight benefits?

Also I totally think they have the right to "collect a check". You pay into it just for this purpose. If your wife has a baby and you use the insurance you pay for no one will criticize you for using it.

Ok, I can't keep my mouth shut anymore. Before I say this, I want anyone who responds to this to know that:
-Yes, I am only in flight training.
-I acknowledge that I don't know exactly how the 121 world works, and there's only one way for me to learn.
-I have nothing but respect for the guys who already did it, everyone on furlough, everyone who's a CFI, and think that yes, they should get hired first.

Now.....what I gather from this thread is that if you have any desire to make it to anything ran by the numbers 1, 2, and 1, your "time" flying 172's and Seminoles is absolutely worthless, even as a CFI. To get hired by a 121 carrier of any kind, you need 121 experience, and to get 121 experience, you need to get hired by a 121 carrier, no exceptions. It almost seems that unless you already made it through a 121 training program, you have less than no chance at coming close to this scene. My little time flying "airplane" (172's) will do nothing more than allow me to be a career CFI, and take on all the disrespect that comes with it. How much of this is accurate? I have no intention to offend anyone here, I just want to know the facts.

You don't need 121 experience to get hired by a 121 operator in theory, just during these times it's a big plus. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with 91 or 135 flying, it's just that with all these furloughed pilots on the street, the strong likelihood is that they'll get hired first. Like it or not, if a pilot passes 121 training and goes through IOE, whether or not they fly another hour after that before getting furloughed, they are more qualified than a 91 or 135 pilot without that experience. Jets are jets, so jet operators from the 91 and 135 world will be viewed favorably, but the SCHEDULE and all the other crap that you have to deal with in the 121 world is what makes it most challenging.

Also, like others have said, the danger with hiring non 121 people is that their training capacity is an unknown. With a 121 person, you know they're going to pass training. It's not that non-121 pilots will never get hired, it's just that right now there are so many of our union brothers and sisters on the street that we feel deserve to be brought back into the fold before all the others.

The time will come, probably sooner than we all think, when non-121 pilots will be hired, but anybody who thinks that any airline is going to push furloughees aside to pick up CFIs is kidding themselves.

I could see how you think it's a catch-22 but, what the real debate is not that the experienced CFI is not qualified to get hired by a regional, but rather that the furloughed 121 guy is BETTER qualified for that position. You have to remember that HR makes a lot of these hiring decisions. It just simply makes sense that the 121 guy has been there before and gotten through the training and can do it again. I'm all for giving CFIs and experienced piston guys a chance but someone that is unable to make it through training costs the company money and its their job to select candidates that have the lowest risk of costing the company additional money.

Wow you are completely clueless. Lets take my scenario I am "just sitting on the couch collecting unemployment" as you put it. I have 3500 hours in the CRJ of which over 1000 as the captain. I am now furloughed from NetJets having been there for over 2 years. I have applied for every job under the sun (within reason for my situation wife in Medical school and baby on the way.) As far as CFI'ing well you said it yourself that you have been waiting for 2 years, not a lot of CFI jobs out there. Even if there was on in my area again you said it yourself, "they won't hire me because I would bolt as soon as something else came along." As for the guy I want in the seat next to me let me tell you a few stories: Flying with a guy who had been a CFI for 4 years a month or two off of IOE almost stalled the CRJ on base to final going into IAD, the former CFI I flew with during a medical emergency absolutely froze while we were trying to coordinate with ATC, Medlink, and the company, or the former CFI who couldn't talk on the radio to save his life. Conversely I flew with an FO who had been away from flying for 10-15 years but he was formerly at Fed EX, he was one of the best FO's I ever had. Now I understand everybody is different but if it were me I would want the former 121 driver who has experience with thunderstorms, MEL's, EDICTS, Flow restrictions, flown the river visual, has dealt with reduced rest overnights, I could go on and on even if it has been a year or two. Time will tell what happens I'm sure.

Oh yeah I do have a 4 year degree and went through a 141 school, so have a lot of folks on the street.

Just a question.. So I am furloughed, got a job as a performance supervisor for the operations of Delta Connection at an airport because of the lack of jobs.. Due to the fact I am not current I shouldn't have my job back? It is really expensive to just rent a plane these days (And yes supervisors make less than first year FO's), and I personally don't know any furloughed pilot just "eating bon bons.." The ones I know are working the ramp, somewhere else in their airline, or even Applebees because they can't find anything else. You aren't the only one working hard dude.. 99 percent of us are just trying to get by with what we can get.. flying or not. I am just glad to have the opportunity to explore and see the management side of the industry while I am on furlough.. No I am not current, but yes I work just as hard as you for probably less money.

OH and PS.. Talk to me after you've dumped a lav on the same jet you are rated to fly while on furlough!

That shows some serious work ethic and integrity if you ask me.