As I understand it, whether it's the pilots of PCL demanding a picketing event, or it's the PCL MEC pushing it, it's the responsibility of the MEC to evaluate whether or not a picketing event will be productive.

If recalls were in order if there was not picketing due to the reasons listed - lapse of deadlines, bad faith negotiations, etc., then they would be unwarranted in my opinion. How can you accuse the company of negotiating in bad faith when sections continue to be TA'd? How can you complain about the lapse of deadlines when ALL MEC's see enough progress to continue negotiations? Both parties have to mutually agree to extended deadlines. It's the job of a rep to explain this to a pilot demanding a recall, that is, if the MEC only approved picketing because of fear of recall... Based on what I've read I still don't know what came first, PCL pilots demanding picketing, or PCL MEC believing it would be productive. Chicken and egg.

Many PCL pilots have been outspoken about needing militant reps. Give me a smart rep over a militant one any day. As my MEC has explained to me, typically an informational picketing event is conducted when negotiations are at a standstill, or management sends an insult across the table (like with what happened at the CommutAir negotiations regarding payscales earlier this year.) They've also explained to me the difference between merger negotiations and Section 6. On one hand the company experiences gains with synergies and increased economies of scale, on the other, they have no incentive to negotiate.

EDIT: My questions aren't aimed at you specifically KellWolf, just generally the comments I've seen from PCL pilots.

I can tell you that I believe the stories 9E pilots are telling about the JM and extensions. I don't know anyone who doesn't. I can tell you without checking with my rep that these staffing issues will not be supported by any XJ pilot, negotiators, or anyone. Your statement is profoundly wrong.

Again I will say that when Pinnacle Holdings bought XJ there were conditions added. Things like staffing levels and training. There is even a Delta attorney at the negotiations observing so that things like these are being dealt with. I keep talking about leverage. In speaking to my reps and the communications we get, the leverage won't come just from the MEC's. But with Delta and Continental unhappy, the Delta attorney present, and the constant under staffing...this is where the pressure is coming from.

The XJ JNC didn't come in like the Gestapo. None of us said we would change the world in 3 weeks. I certainly didn't think management was quaking in their boots with the thought of dealing with us. But I think that with the mainlines unhappy this will cause things to happen. Cheaper isn't better if you can't perform. Also I am NOT stating 9E pilots are lazy. Far from it. But cheaper isn't always the best answer and staffing properly is VERY important to all of XJ.

ok NM SORRY........................

Word from our negotiators is that the XJ guys don't think the JM/Ext language is near as important as our guys. It doesn't matter if your guys "won't stand for it." If the language isn't there to protect you, the company would leave you with little choice. Or you could do like we do here now, refuse and have a meeting with the base manager on a weekly basis. My info is from our negotiators, so it's profoundly wrong, there's a serious misunderstanding between your negotiators and ours.

I've been hearing about pressure from Delta for a while. Before that it was pressure from NWA. What's your source that this pressure and these conditions exist? Have you seen the agreements between Pinnacle Corp and Delta? I'd love to read them myself.

As long as flights are leaving on-time and completion factor is up, Delta doesn't give a rat's rear end about what goes on here. If anything, that's been beaten into our heads. I was once a believer in pressure from the mainline side of things. 5 years later, I've stopped believing in that fairy tale.

Probably. In our MEC's opinion (and a majority of the pilots I've spoken to), it was either felt a picketing event would either be productive or at least not hurt things. Seeing as we picketed yesterday with a decent turn out and another event planned for next week with management not pulling away from the table, I'd say at least the latter was correct. It's possible that the three sections TAed may have been because of the picketing, but unless we've got a time machine where we can go back, cancel it and see if those sections were still TAed, we'll never really know. I'm not sure if I adhere to that opinion myself, though.

Unwarranted or not, the elected reps would still be accused of not listening to the pilot group at large.

Sigh. Because we've seen it before.....with the same management.....and the same negotiators. They give you just enough to prove to the MECs (or the NMB) that they are negotiating while not getting the deal done.

This question was brought up yesterday. The answer we got made a lot of sense. If we pull out of the JCBA, we go back to on ice in Section 6. If we are the ones that pull out, will that look good or bad in the eyes of the NMB? Just because they aren't directly involved in these particular negotiations doesn't mean they aren't paying attention. If we were the ones to shoot down the process, I doubt the NMB would be very anxious to get us back to the table.

The picketing was (and is) to try to pressure management to get a deal done. In all honesty, I haven't seen any good arguments that picketing would be a bad thing. We already canceled one event in good faith for the company when they said they were "committed to a 45 day timeline." Well, that's gone....and another besides. We're a month past that deadline and only 3 sections closer than before.

I agree with that, and, at least in my domicile, we've got that.
I didn't think United/CAL's negotiations were at a stand still yet. Spirit was "making progress" in the last week, yet they still picketed to put pressure on management. The deal just didn't get done, but they were progressing towards a deal during the 30 day cooling off period. It just wasn't fast enough. There was small progress being made in Oct of 2006 (per Star Tribune articles I just Googled at least), yet picketing events were still held by Mesaba to pressure your management into a deal.

Your MEC must have an inside track since pretty much every gain in "synergies" and economies of scale we're coming up with over here is theoretical at best. They CAN get the same synergies and economies of scale by keeping us separate as well. That's the reason they originally wanted 2 companies with 2 contracts: one for jets and one for props. They've done a bang-up job of combining back of the house operations between 9E and 9L already. Just look at our CEC and SOC. Now with the new downtown offices, they'll have even more room.

Hey, that's cool, man. I'm open to discussion, as heated as they may get at times. I think what is coming to a head are extreme cultural differences. We've had issues with our MEC in the past, so we're pretty used to second guessing and questioning their actions. If our MEC came out and said "Don't picket with XXX airline" while a lot of our guys were planning on walking with XXX airline, our response (and mine) would be "Okay....why the hell not?" For us, "We're making progress" isn't a good explanation, especially since the progress we've seen in isn't much different than what we've seen in over a year. Your MEC, for the most part, has done an excellent job of representing your pilots, so you have a bit more trust in what they say. This is first time that I've heard a decision from them I didn't agree with. I'm also personal friends with the Colgan MEC chairman (and will be even after all this blows over), but I can't for the life of me understand this call. Then again, the chair doesn't get a vote at the MEC level either.

I really hope we get a deal done soon. I'd love to come on here, post to all the XJ/9L guys and say "Okay, you were right. I'm a moron. Let's move on." I'll be the first one to do it if we get a decent TA out of this deal. It's not you guys we don't trust, it's 9E management. This is an EXTREME example, but it's sort of like being beaten repeatedly by your boyfriend/girlfriend, going to your buddies house and them telling you to go home and give them another chance.

I just feel like we're trying to explain our side and our reasoning, but all we're being met with is "We're making progress." The 9E pilots have been making SlOOOOOOWW progress for 6 years, so that reason holds no water with us. I don't agree with the massive emotional responses on here (some of which may have even come from me, and I apologize if they did), but I do understand them. 9E guys feel like we've been stabbed in the back by people we though were on our team.

Imagine if everyone put this amount of effort into telling management what we want. Instead of moaning on here.

This is just speculation. There is no evidence to support these claims.


That is the same attorney that has presided over the Pinnacle negotiations since late 2008. He is retained by Pinnacle Corp.


Delta is no less happy with Pinnacle than they usually are. Our performance, while it has slipped over this year, is still better than some other DCI carriers. I can't speak for whats going on with Colgan performance.

Sorry to interrupt the wild speculation and baseless rumor mill.

I don't think you're a moron. I think everyone is worried about different things and there is little we can do about it. This is going to be a team effort and even the best of intentions can cause pain. We XJ's don't trust blindly and we certainly don't roll over.

You asked me about seeing the Mesaba/Delta purchase agreement. I haven't seen it but my rep told me about it. I don't always agree and I certainly don't like some of the guys personally but my MEC has never lied or deceived me. So until they've proved bad intentions or something - I must go with what they tell me as correct.

Is it possible the 9E management are just playing for time? YES! No one at XJ I spoke to thought a lot would be done in 45 days. Honestly I am surprised they got as far as they did. And even if things go a bit longer, I wouldn't be surprised. But we won't wait forever. We won't stand for the wholesale removal of aircraft. We want everybody to benefit from our positive things in the contract and I want the advantages of your contract. I want Colgan to stop being slaves and I want to be proud of our company.

I don't know where the line is that says 9E management is stalling. My MEC says we aren't there yet. I have to go with that. As to protective language about JM's and scheduling, I hope and depend on your people to steer us in the right direction.

Yeah, I have to agree with you there!! I was cringing when reading this idiotic post!! Once again, what a great first post, way to lay the ground work on who you are.