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Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 897855)
First of all, I want to thank the numbers of Skywest folks that have treated me with respect and dignity as I make my way to/from work on a route that USED to be flown by our 757's, 737's and A320's, but in the last couple of years has transitioned to mostly RJ's. This is a stinky business sometimes, and I DO appreciate the ride.
A little bit of history, however. I was on the receiving end of NUMEROUS threats (some recently) from Skywest pilots saying they were going to deny me the jumpseat because of a mixup in the computer that UAL management was not bothering to fix whereas UAL guys would show up ahead of Skywest guys on their own flights....because you use our computer system for the jump. A couple of times, I hear a UAL pilot slipped through the cracks and snuck on the airplane in front of a Skywest guy. This was brought up to me time and time again, every time I tried to jumpseat (which is the only way I would EVER get a seat on a route that typically has a load factor in the high 90's... ALL YEAR LONG thanks to UAL pulling mainline from it). I was told I needed to get our guys to fix it, or I would be left behind. My answer was always the same. "I hear you, but unfortunately I'm afraid this is low on the alarmingly high totem pole that we have between the pilots and management. Feel free to deny me, I could use the time off anyway". I was threatened denial as recently as 3 months ago. Fast forward, and now a "jumpseat war" is the most horrible thing in the world. Not trying to start a debate about the rights/wrongs, just remember that it always looks different when its YOUR issue. One more thing that I feel needs to be pointed out. The pilots in question that will be forced to IAH through no fault of their own are the junior pilots on the property according to the posts I'm reading here. Every pilot hired at Skywest in the last 7 years was hired as a direct replacement for a UAL pilot that is now out on the street... some of them raising gear for the very guys that were hired in their place for 1/5th their pay. When each and every person in these junior position was hired, they were fully aware (or should have been) that they were replacing a mainline pilot with their lower paying job flying airplanes that were painted the same, flying the same routes, and doing the exact same thing as our 1400+ brothers and sisters were doing before UAL used Ch 11 to destroy our contract and what was left of our scope clause. I'm not saying Skywest pilots shouldn't have gone out to try to get hired, and I'm sure I'll hear all about how United pilots "voted in" this scope clause "voluntarily" (go through a Ch 11 process and see how you feel about the word "voluntary" when/IF you come out the other side - see Mexicana). But the simple fact remains that at SOME POINT the pendulum was going to shift, and you HAD to know that the seat that you are in at someone else's expense was going to get awwwwwfffulllly uncomfortable. Best of luck to both sides, and I do truly hope a solution can be found that doesn't include the jumpseat. |
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 897855)
Every pilot hired at Skywest in the last 7 years was hired as a direct replacement for a UAL pilot that is now out on the street... some of them raising gear for the very guys that were hired in their place for 1/5th their pay. When each and every person in these junior position was hired, they were fully aware (or should have been) that they were replacing a mainline pilot with their lower paying job flying airplanes that were painted the same, flying the same routes, and doing the exact same thing as our 1400+ brothers and sisters were doing before UAL used Ch 11 to destroy our contract and what was left of our scope clause.
I'm not saying Skywest pilots shouldn't have gone out to try to get hired. The 3000 SkyW pilots and the 9000+/- other UAX pilots are not replacements. Express contributes significant dollars to your companies bottom line, which in your best interest. I have a feeling when the 1400 UA pilots are back on property the replacement argument will go away. You guys have the same tired arguments over and over. So... 20 people want to go from Fargo to ORD and you want to fly a 320? Great thinking. How does your company get those 20 folks into the system in the most efficent way.. BINGO! Express. Almost everyone wants out of the regionals, the only ones that don't are the older guys. We have 99% interest in common. I wish people would focus on that instead of the 1%. |
BTW, a jumpseat war is stupid. On all sides.
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Originally Posted by IrishTiger
(Post 897573)
You know, after thinking about it, I'm not so sure the contract IS being violated. UAL does indeed own CAL now, and that means they are free to do whatever they want within the realm of their business model. They could technically close IAH I guess. They can do whatever they want. UAL has a crappy scope clause, unlike CAL. But CAL was just bought out - so there's going to be some changes made. Gee 757driver, what are you going to do now?
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Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
(Post 897884)
Wrong... just wrong. So, you want to complain, but agree that these pilots should have done the same thing anyway?
The 3000 SkyW pilots and the 9000+/- other UAX pilots are not replacements. Express contributes significant dollars to your companies bottom line, which in your best interest. I have a feeling when the 1400 UA pilots are back on property the replacement argument will go away. You guys have the same tired arguments over and over. So... 20 people want to go from Fargo to ORD and you want to fly a 320? Great thinking. How does your company get those 20 folks into the system in the most efficent way.. BINGO! Express. Almost everyone wants out of the regionals, the only ones that don't are the older guys. We have 99% interest in common. I wish people would focus on that instead of the 1%. SEA-LAX SEA-DEN PDX-SFO PDX-LAX PDX-DEN ORD-ATL DEN-ATL IAD-ATL blah blah blah. You've been reading too many management songbooks about RJ's contributing $$$ to the bottom lines and matching demand to capacity. Our moron-management trotted out some statistics about average load passengers travelling to ORD from somewhere like DSM. They said it was "65". Well, of course it is!! You've got a 66 seat jet on it! How stupid do they think we are??? If the RJ's were forced to stand on their own, buy their own gas, get their own res system, and fill their own planes, you'd have a lot more Independence Airs. Of course I'm complaining! I'm a pilot, aren't I? |
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
(Post 897885)
BTW, a jumpseat war is stupid. On all sides.
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Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
(Post 897884)
Wrong... just wrong. So, you want to complain, but agree that these pilots should have done the same thing anyway?
The 3000 SkyW pilots and the 9000+/- other UAX pilots are not replacements. Express contributes significant dollars to your companies bottom line, which in your best interest. I have a feeling when the 1400 UA pilots are back on property the replacement argument will go away. You guys have the same tired arguments over and over. So... 20 people want to go from Fargo to ORD and you want to fly a 320? Great thinking. How does your company get those 20 folks into the system in the most efficent way.. BINGO! Express. Almost everyone wants out of the regionals, the only ones that don't are the older guys. We have 99% interest in common. I wish people would focus on that instead of the 1%. |
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 897855)
First of all, I want to thank the numbers of Skywest folks that have treated me with respect and dignity as I make my way to/from work on a route that USED to be flown by our 757's, 737's and A320's, but in the last couple of years has transitioned to mostly RJ's. This is a stinky business sometimes, and I DO appreciate the ride.
A little bit of history, however. I was on the receiving end of NUMEROUS threats (some recently) from Skywest pilots saying they were going to deny me the jumpseat because of a mixup in the computer that UAL management was not bothering to fix whereas UAL guys would show up ahead of Skywest guys on their own flights....because you use our computer system for the jump. A couple of times, I hear a UAL pilot slipped through the cracks and snuck on the airplane in front of a Skywest guy. This was brought up to me time and time again, every time I tried to jumpseat (which is the only way I would EVER get a seat on a route that typically has a load factor in the high 90's... ALL YEAR LONG thanks to UAL pulling mainline from it). I was told I needed to get our guys to fix it, or I would be left behind. My answer was always the same. "I hear you, but unfortunately I'm afraid this is low on the alarmingly high totem pole that we have between the pilots and management. Feel free to deny me, I could use the time off anyway". I was threatened denial as recently as 3 months ago. Fast forward, and now a "jumpseat war" is the most horrible thing in the world. Not trying to start a debate about the rights/wrongs, just remember that it always looks different when its YOUR issue. One more thing that I feel needs to be pointed out. The pilots in question that will be forced to IAH through no fault of their own are the junior pilots on the property according to the posts I'm reading here. Every pilot hired at Skywest in the last 7 years was hired as a direct replacement for a UAL pilot that is now out on the street... some of them raising gear for the very guys that were hired in their place for 1/5th their pay. When each and every person in these junior position was hired, they were fully aware (or should have been) that they were replacing a mainline pilot with their lower paying job flying airplanes that were painted the same, flying the same routes, and doing the exact same thing as our 1400+ brothers and sisters were doing before UAL used Ch 11 to destroy our contract and what was left of our scope clause. I'm not saying Skywest pilots shouldn't have gone out to try to get hired, and I'm sure I'll hear all about how United pilots "voted in" this scope clause "voluntarily" (go through a Ch 11 process and see how you feel about the word "voluntary" when/IF you come out the other side - see Mexicana). But the simple fact remains that at SOME POINT the pendulum was going to shift, and you HAD to know that the seat that you are in at someone else's expense was going to get awwwwwfffulllly uncomfortable. Best of luck to both sides, and I do truly hope a solution can be found that doesn't include the jumpseat. Few people who get hired at a regional understand any of the industry dynamics into which they are getting involved. That's stuff you learn after talking to senior pilots during cruise flight. The large majority of regional pilots were simply following the established career path for civilian pilots. Nobody knew where it was all going to end up. I would ask what would you propose that entry level pilots do instead of regionals, except I already know there is no rational alternative answer for most (there are nowhere near enough corporate/135 jobs to train all the airline-bound pilots). What's the solution? Relying on CFI's to understand long-term career dynamics and ramifications and to selflessly give up their dreams and goals so mainline current mainline pilots can enjoy lucrative, stable careers? Yeah... Any solution has to be achievable using the existing power levers. "Well I think it should be this way" is just mental masturbation. The only solution I can think of is for mainline unions to insist that ALL of their flying is done by pilots on their seniority list. The challenge is that long-term feed contracts with regionals would be too expensive for mainline to just cancel. The regional pilots could still be employed by regionals (thus achieving some savings on non-pilot labor) but their compensation would be negotiated by the mainline union and would be the same for all regionals operating under that banner. The pilots could bid into mainline flying when seniority permits. This would take pilots out of the whipsaw equation within any one brand. There are a few logistics and cultural challenges but these could be sorted out. Got any better ideas? I honestly can't think of anything else that is remotely practical. |
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 897897)
You can have Fargo.
SEA-LAX SEA-DEN PDX-SFO PDX-LAX PDX-DEN ORD-ATL DEN-ATL IAD-ATL
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 897855)
First of all, I want to thank the numbers of Skywest folks that have treated me with respect and dignity as I make my way to/from work on a route that USED to be flown by our 757's, 737's and A320's, but in the last couple of years has transitioned to mostly RJ's. This is a stinky business sometimes, and I DO appreciate the ride.
A little bit of history, however. I was on the receiving end of NUMEROUS threats (some recently) from Skywest pilots saying they were going to deny me the jumpseat because of a mixup in the computer that UAL management was not bothering to fix whereas UAL guys would show up ahead of Skywest guys on their own flights....because you use our computer system for the jump. A couple of times, I hear a UAL pilot slipped through the cracks and snuck on the airplane in front of a Skywest guy. This was brought up to me time and time again, every time I tried to jumpseat (which is the only way I would EVER get a seat on a route that typically has a load factor in the high 90's... ALL YEAR LONG thanks to UAL pulling mainline from it). I was told I needed to get our guys to fix it, or I would be left behind. My answer was always the same. "I hear you, but unfortunately I'm afraid this is low on the alarmingly high totem pole that we have between the pilots and management. Feel free to deny me, I could use the time off anyway". I was threatened denial as recently as 3 months ago. Fast forward, and now a "jumpseat war" is the most horrible thing in the world. Not trying to start a debate about the rights/wrongs, just remember that it always looks different when its YOUR issue. One more thing that I feel needs to be pointed out. The pilots in question that will be forced to IAH through no fault of their own are the junior pilots on the property according to the posts I'm reading here. Every pilot hired at Skywest in the last 7 years was hired as a direct replacement for a UAL pilot that is now out on the street... some of them raising gear for the very guys that were hired in their place for 1/5th their pay. When each and every person in these junior position was hired, they were fully aware (or should have been) that they were replacing a mainline pilot with their lower paying job flying airplanes that were painted the same, flying the same routes, and doing the exact same thing as our 1400+ brothers and sisters were doing before UAL used Ch 11 to destroy our contract and what was left of our scope clause. I'm not saying Skywest pilots shouldn't have gone out to try to get hired, and I'm sure I'll hear all about how United pilots "voted in" this scope clause "voluntarily" (go through a Ch 11 process and see how you feel about the word "voluntary" when/IF you come out the other side - see Mexicana). But the simple fact remains that at SOME POINT the pendulum was going to shift, and you HAD to know that the seat that you are in at someone else's expense was going to get awwwwwfffulllly uncomfortable. Best of luck to both sides, and I do truly hope a solution can be found that doesn't include the jumpseat. I'm sorry that you're hearing about it in a threatening manner--that's not cool at all. I'm hoping that most of our pilots are courteous and helpful. Please try not to judge our pilot group based on a few bad apples. Also, if CAL pilots want to start a jumpseat war, they have every right to. I think it's extremely misguided, though--lacking the ability to actually enforce their contract, they would just be taking it out on a powerless group in an action that really wouldn't do anything. Skywest not being ALPA has nothing to do with this, either--being ALPA would not give us the power to reject the flying. It's not struck work. |
gettinbumped,
Did you fly for a regional to build your time and experience? I ask, because I'm sure a vast majority of the 1400 furloughees did. Is your soul magically "cleansed" once you get hired by mainline? I have a hard time taking a group seriously when they themselves were, at some point, part of the "problem". If you built your time and experience by some other means, that is great. I wish there were enough of those jobs and/or military flying slots available for us all to avoid the regional word. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. I truly hope that both sides can remain professional throughout this process. Denying anybody (mainline or regional) the opportunity to get to work, or more importantly, home, doesn't do anybody any good. You might feel good about it for a few hours, but I can promise that your conscience will get the better of you when you realize that you possibly were the reason a new father didn't get to hear his young child's first word, or see him take his first step. |
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