Of course ALPA has some control over telling thier pilot groups that a contract is good or bad before it goes to vote as well as fostering unity within a pilot group and industry as a whole. Your so called table scraps are mainline flying that was outsourced to companies and pilots willing to undercut mainline and each other for the opportunity to be the lowest paid. If your regional airline is so valuable and cost effective then put your own paint on it and start selling tickets yourself.

The markets and industry surely can afford to put all flying at mainline. It just takes the will of management to actually want to run an airline not a piggy bank for corporate bonuses. There is absolutely no reason that mainline cannot have reasonable payscales for all aircraft down to BE-1900's as an entry level aircraft. Just think of the ability to control the brand and quality of the product. United just rated second as one of the meanest airlines to fly on in the americas (domestic), any coincidence that nearly 50 percent of thier domestic flying is done by regionals? Most mainlines have lost complete control over the quality of thier product for domestic operations.

What you now consider table scrapes used to be mainline career paying flying.

 

I am. That's what I'm saying.

LOVED the dig there "maybe you did try and it didn't work out". You guys just can't help yourselves from insulting us can you? No, FYI, I've never applied. No desire to. Now for the rest of you post...

Can't stand whining? Then maybe pilot message boards aren't for you.

I'm glad you took a "risk". It seems to be a common misconception among junior mainline pilots that having taken that so-called "risk" somehow makes you better than (or more "entitled to" success) the rest of us who didn't. I will never understand why you guys feel superior to us because you chose to gamble and won (for now).

Now I'd say that you knew going in that management has a history of asking, and MECs have a history of selling scope. That was part of your risk. But now you are fighting it and blaming those still at the place you came from. Maybe a little buyer's remorse there?

I'm not upset with you except for when you make threats to take my job away, just because you chose to take a risk, and it might not be working out.

As I said. You tell our union to fight for you, and I'll tell our union to fight for me. If you can't understand why I choose to stay at a regional, then I guess it doesn't really matter.

But true unity would be to find a mutually beneficial solution like one list or a staple. When you guys unilaterally rattle your sabers and say you're going to steamroll us, of course, we're going to bow up and defend ourselves.

 

referencing only the bold items, yeah thats most all of it.
mainline flying outsourced, first to outscore you need to own it, YOU DONT OWN ANY FLYING, plus if you wanted the flying, ALPA pilots mainline should not been so full of themselves to look down on this flying.

own paint, why not, another low cost carrier

reasonable payscales- you did not do it then you are going to do it now, US Airways E190 is max $95 for captain at 16 years, what you willing to do it for?

united bad numbers-now you blame the regionals for bad numbers, well you get what you pay for, was not DAL number 1.

table scraps-you you threw them away and now you are crying.

quick question, how long have you been a pilot at mainline, that is a recognized mainline?

 

If the majors wanted to fly regional sized aircraft I think it would already be happening on a bigger scale. If they DO decide to go after it, most likely the staffing would be from the regionals that currently fly the tails needed. That's great and may be something that would pan out, I would though, consider that a lateral move.

Dosbo, I am happy for you that you made it to the pathway to your ultimate career goal. I know you sacrificed many things to attain it. I chose to stay where I am and like you who chose to move on, I found merit, for me, in staying.

I just don't see that the majors could continue to operate Boeings and DC-9's on low yeild markets. I see the regionals as someone who could represent the mother carrier when the market/economy could not support higher cost aircraft, but still wanting to keep the other majors from stealing their hard earned and well established market share. I see the regionals as a surgical weapon that the mother carrier may subsidise as a means to keep the competition at bay. For your mother carrier of choice, a win-win, at worst, the best of a bad situation.

In my "perfect world scenario", if I would have been making the decisions, I would have used the "Regional Airliner" as a hub bypass aircraft. That is the origional intent in Bombardier's marketing plan. Scope is what killed that. I believe that had scope not have been an issue and the mother carriers would have bought the RJ and operated it as a hub bypass that there would many more mainline pilots in the ranks. No they wouldn't be making the big dollars, but what a network to bargian with as a represented pilot and what a network to be feared from the competition.

I personally remember that ALPA pilots did not want the lower wages for the RJ and rejected the idea of them flying it. Then they were scared of the RJ and reacted with scope and thus killed creative ideas and route structures that could have been used to facilitate dominance in the mother carriers market share and route structure. There is a possibility that this will happen IF CAL and UAL pilots "go all the way" with the exclusion of the RJ codeshare within their systems, if corporate will allow it. Those tails are needed and that will bring the RJ and it's pilots into your fold. Should have been long ago, but I can see it happening in the future.

I'm still glad that I chose to stay, (25 years) and I'm happy for all who have taken the chance and moved on past the regional level. I am excited about what the future holds. I see along the way, as the airline industry evolves that some regionals may appear to some as under achievers. I used the word evolve, it's not over yet, just a slower pace that it could have been had those making the big decisions had a crystal ball. We are all doing the best we can with what we have and some companies have more available resources than others. By the time it's done evolving or should I say slowing down with big changes, we ALL may be working for just three or four carriers.
It's just the way it is today. Things are changing and the future is bright, especially with less less student pilot upstarts. Hang on the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

 

First if you are not flying your own paint you don't own the flying. If you are flying United/Continental paint it is thier (companies) flying NOT YOURS, but mainline. ACA tried thier own paint, that didn't work out to well, great group of guys that got hosed by the way.

Mainline pilots are not as full of themselves as you think. They are frustrated by watching thier careers stripped out from under them, huge loss of pay, time off, and retirement loss. They did not throw the flying away it was taken from them by management in bankruptcy while hoping to retain some of the above benefits.

Yes I would be willing to fly 50 seaters at the 2003 AWAC or Comair rates.
it would be an entry level aircraft and I would have growth potential to move up without starting over. Plus the benefits would be better. The longevity loss moving to a major is a huge hit to quality of life.

You are right Mainline management gets what they pay for the lowest bidder with the associated loss of quality control. PASSENGERS DO NOTICE THIS LOSS OF QUALITY.

Not that it's your business but I spent less than a year a my major. Hired in 2008 when things were looking up. Age 65 then passed, oil went to 140.00, Glenn parked a 100 737's, reduced domestic capacity 10 percent and increased regional feed 14 percent, resulting in my furlough along with 1400 other mainline jobs. I'm not crying about giving away flying, I'm pi$$ed about having my career ****ecanned while more flying is outsourced to the lowest bidder.

 

Eloquent justification for regional service, but it is still outsourced flying.

Even though I have been furloughed for the past two years I still dont regret the move. When I decided to get into the 121 career field it was still career worthy at the mainline level. As long as a large chunk of flying remains out sourced the career will suck, quality of service will suck, and passengers will be unhappy with the overall product no matter who is flying the aircraft.

As far as the Fat Lady singing, we will see what the results of the UniCon JCBA are. If they are positive I may get my career back, If negative it will be time for me to pack my bags and write off the last decade of effort and sacrifice then move on to something else. Perhaps I could manage a Burger King, it probably pays more anyway.

 

I wasn't digging you. I was trying to simply say that maybe you didn't get hired by the airline that you were trying for. I'm not perfect, I applied to 3 airlines and got hired by 2, so it's not like I'm saying that I'm better than you. Relax.

I don't know who you work for, Skywest or XJT. I don't think that we have the same union, but if for some chance we do, this is my main point of not staying at a regional. Look at ALPA, they take a cut of my pay to do their work to stay in business. If you take a 2% cut of a regional pilots pay (let's say $75K vs. mainline $180K), who do you think that ALPA will try to help out more? ALPA would rather help out the person that gives me more money. It's simple business.

That's my point. Why would you want to stay employed with a regional and in turn get less representation because you don't make as much money?

 

A low yield market is the west coast to Hawaii. Flown by Boeing/Airbuses everyday. Higher yield markets are ones with less competition. Think cities like FSD/TVC/ASE/BZN/JAC..etc. Its not a matter of yields but rather matter of O/D numbers. CASM's on RJ's are ALWAYS higher than the larger jets..ALWAYS. What management is paying a premium for is frequency. You are absolutely correct in your statement that mgmt. subsidizes their regional partner.

As for RJ's bypassing hubs I don't think the market will accept the fare price required (high CASM'S) for profitability. SWA has been thought of as the point to point airline yet they are in reality more of a hub airline than you might think. I think the RJ's are an excellent tool in thin markets and for probing into new markets. What they shouldn't be doing, for example, is running 10 round trips from ORD-STL everyday. That kind of frequency actually hurts schedule reliability into ORD and costs more that running fewer mainline aircraft. I am VERY skeptical of RJ's as a point to point tool and don't think it would have happened if mainline flew them.

 

Thread drift............
St. Louis sucks. Worst place I ever lived.
....now, back to the regular scheduled thread

 

Apology accepted.

I work for ASA. So YES, we are represented by the same union if you're represented by ALPA, as you said. And I'm glad you recognize (and even brag about) the inherent conflict of interest in that ALPA takes my money and takes your money, but helps you "more" because you pay more!

I will tell you this. If your JCBA eliminates RJ flying (putting us out of jobs) and ALPA's president signs said agreement, the upcoming DFR lawsuit will make the RJDC look like a Sunday School meeting. You can count on it. ALPA knows this, and your MEC leaders know this. So everything else is just chest thumping and ****ing in the wind.

As a side note, looking at the pay scale on this site, it's laughable that you would try to say the average mainline pay is $180 a year!!!