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Has anyone that is whinning about this graduated from Western Michigan University? Doesn't sound like it to me. I really don't think Pinnacle would have agreed to this if they didn't like WMU's program. Each person who has commented on this thread had 250 hrs at some point. Everybody also flew through a storm or hail for the first time at some point or another. I find it very disturbing that so many of you are unwilling to help someone new to the industry. I graduated from Western, and one advantage I have over a lot of you, is that I was taught that flying an airplane involves tons of team work. Who knows, you give us a chance and we might be able to educate/help each other. It's also good to ask questions. Many of you act like you never had to ask a question and were born with the ability to fly a jet. We are all on the same team here people! The fact that you don't even know how ridiculous your comments are is prima facie evidence that you do not belong in an airline cockpit! I do not work for Pinnacle but I was a captain at its previous incarnation who delivered some of those airframes a decade ago. As someone who actually did train a number of the senior pilots there let me say: An airline cockpit is not the place for you to get your education/let me help you. A CRM class your junior year and some time in a procedures trainer coupled with your SR-20 time do not make you the Ace of the Base that you think you are. Pinnacle did not purchase the aft CG mod. The aircraft can not accommodate the captain's ego and your sense of entitlement in such a small flight deck. |
[QUOTE=BlueMoon;976944]WMU used to train pilots for BA and EK. It got put down when the economy tanked and since we don't have the nicest weather, it snows 4 to 5 months out of the year, makes sense to do it someplace south.
WMU required you to have a CFI and get your CFII within a semester to instruct there. It took a couple years at the time to be an MEI instructor there.[/QUOTE] More like less than a year if you kissed enough arse, 4 years wasn't enough time if you didn't kiss enough. |
Originally Posted by sandrich
(Post 976949)
Anyone know if Riddle still has their agreements with Eagle or whoever it was they sent their grads to?
Riddle still has an agreement with Eagle for special mins its listed on Eaglehire, last time I looked the mins where 500/75 |
Pinnacle hiring 250 hour wonder-boy pilots is an accident waiting to happen. I will refuse to fly with them in the front, or if I'm in the back deadheading. Why on earth would management want to hire "NON-Seasoned" pilots is beyond my comprehension. This is a new low.
We need "seasoned" pilots to fly jets for the airlines. For those of you with 250 hours, "seasoned" means having experience flying in multiple seasons, multiple winters dealing with icing, multiple summers dealing with thunderstorms. Obtaining this experience by flight instructing, flying corporate aircraft that fly much slower and require less quick thinking before being thrusted into a 550 mph glass cockpit jet and flying 5 - 6 legs a day while crossing squall lines, getting struck by lightning, fighting hailstorms, performing CPR on 90 year old passengers in the back who have fallen and can't get up while simultaneously dealing with engine fires/shutdowns, shooting cat 2 approaches down to bare minimums, struggling with PCU Runaways, and solving fuel leak problems while the aircraft is solely powered by the ADG needs "seasoned pilots" to deal with this day to day challenges. Otherwise it's just an accident waiting to happen while these young whipper-snappers build flight time at the expense of safety. |
Originally Posted by PinkSlip
(Post 977019)
Pinnacle hiring 250 hour wonder-boy pilots is an accident waiting to happen. I will refuse to fly with them in the front or in the back while deadheading of any aircraft piloted by a 250 hour pilot. Why on earth would management want to hire NON-Seasoned pilots is beyond my comprehension.
We need seasoned pilots to fly jets for the airlines. For those of you with 250 hours, seasoned means having experience flying in multiple seasons, multiple winters dealing with icing, multiple summers dealing with thunderstorms. Obtaining this experience by flight instructing, flying corporate aircraft that fly much slower and require less quick thinking before being thrusted into a 550 mph glass cockpit jet and flying 5 - 6 legs a day while crossing squall lines, getting struck by lightning, fighting hailstorms, performing CPR on 90 year old passengers in the back who have fallen and can't get up while simultaneously dealing with engine fires/shutdowns, shooting cat 2 approaches down to bare minimums, struggling with PCU Runaways, and solving fuel leak problems while the aircraft is solely powered by the ADG needs "seasoned pilots" to deal with this day to day challenges. |
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 977024)
You have now graduated from a troll/flamebait to a tool.
What's unprofessional about wanting "seasoned" pilots to fly precious lives around the skies at slightly less than Mach 1? We all have a vested interest with insuring that our "profession" is piloted by "seasoned professionals." Think about it, don't you want the safest pilots flying? Or would you rather un-experienced pilots???????? |
Your 9E? What is the hotel for training?[/QUOTE]
I'm in new hire training with 9E right now. The 2/28 class is still in what used to be the holiday inn select. The rest of the classes are in the courtyard where they do the interviews. Right now each class is coming to MEM for two weeks of indoc, then they go to MSP for two weeks for systems. They then come back to MEM for CPTs. After that the sims will either be in MEM or St. Louis. |
Originally Posted by PinkSlip
(Post 977019)
Why on earth would management want to hire "NON-Seasoned" pilots is beyond my comprehension.
$ |
Originally Posted by Inconceivable
(Post 976996)
Pinnacle did not purchase the aft CG mod. The aircraft can not accommodate the captain's ego and your sense of entitlement in such a small flight deck.
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And in the mean time during the few days the back-and-forth bickering between members has been going on a bunch of short-time flight instructors have gotten class dates while a furloughed CRJ pilot still hasn't gotten a phone call from an airline that's theoretically hurting for pilots... something wrong with this picture?
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Originally Posted by PinkSlip
(Post 977019)
Pinnacle hiring 250 hour wonder-boy pilots is an accident waiting to happen. I will refuse to fly with them in the front, or if I'm in the back deadheading. Why on earth would management want to hire "NON-Seasoned" pilots is beyond my comprehension. This is a new low.
We need "seasoned" pilots to fly jets for the airlines. For those of you with 250 hours, "seasoned" means having experience flying in multiple seasons, multiple winters dealing with icing, multiple summers dealing with thunderstorms. Obtaining this experience by flight instructing, flying corporate aircraft that fly much slower and require less quick thinking before being thrusted into a 550 mph glass cockpit jet and flying 5 - 6 legs a day while crossing squall lines, getting struck by lightning, fighting hailstorms, performing CPR on 90 year old passengers in the back who have fallen and can't get up while simultaneously dealing with engine fires/shutdowns, shooting cat 2 approaches down to bare minimums, struggling with PCU Runaways, and solving fuel leak problems while the aircraft is solely powered by the ADG needs "seasoned pilots" to deal with this day to day challenges. Otherwise it's just an accident waiting to happen while these young whipper-snappers build flight time at the expense of safety. |
Originally Posted by sandrich
(Post 976934)
I've been following this thread for a few days now. I don't exactly agree with the agreement between WMU and Pinnacle. I am currently a senior at FIT graduating in May, with 225 hours and a CMEL. Our flight school trains pilots from Ireland, Turkey, and Kazakhstan. So while we are paying $325 an hour in a Seminole, they are getting free rides from their governments... My instructor has 2400 hours, most of which is dual-given, and he's still at FIT instructing...Two of his students he had last year are currently flying 737's in India and Ireland....FIT barely lets their graduates become instructors unless they have their CFII, meanwhile Pinnacle is letting WMU grads pretty much walk right in. So, no, I do not agree with this because of the reasons I previously listed. I, however, am looking forward to getting my CFI, CFII, and MEI once I graduate, and learning as much as I possibly can by teaching other students for a year or so. Hard work is required to get a descent reward, it shouldn't just be handed to you...And in no way, shape, or form am I trying to portray a sense of "FIT grads are better than Riddle, WMU, UND" Last November, one of our Seminoles crashed in Palm Beach on takeoff killing all 4 souls on board. The left seat was a pilot training for MEI with 300 hours, the right seat instructor had over 3000. Cause of the accident-> overweight takeoff followed by an engine failure after rotation. You'd think a 3000 hour MEI would have been able to prevent this...I am in no position to judge anyone's flying abilities, but just because you have thousands of hours, doesn't mean you are some sort of flawless pilot. Accidents can and do happen.
Back in the days when I was a instructor in India, My students that I gave air-ex & took them to CPL, a large majority are now 4 striper full captains on A320 & B737, so should I be complainingthat I am still where I am & they are captains........... These students went from a cessna 152 to Airbus A320 or B737, not even a multi in between or some with a 10 -15 hrs on Seneca/ Duchess, still they are all captains, how did they pass the sim check rodes & how did they make captains, ??? Well they all had to work hard to make it..... & they did & some got dropped from the sim training & sent back........ As far as 250 hrs fresh CPL's getting to fly CRJ, Your example of the ill fated crash with a very well qualified Instructor on board proves that experience alone is not enough....... Most of the charter pilots forget, bigger aircrafts is all procedures, CRM & FMS etc etc & we may not like this but it is true..... Wish all the new hires good luck & rest all be happy that airlines are finally at a point that they are desperate that they are even absorbing 250 hrs freshers, they will have no choice but to hire us also one day, so our turn can also be not very far behind....... If winter is almost gone, can spring be far behind......!!!! |
Originally Posted by pilotbaba
(Post 977318)
Sandrich U just made a very solid point to all those who are whining & compaining just because the WMC grads got in & they didn't......
Back in the days when I was a instructor in India, My students that I gave air-ex & took them to CPL, a large majority are now 4 striper full captains on A320 & B737, so should I be complainingthat I am still where I am & they are captains........... These students went from a cessna 152 to Airbus A320 or B737, not even a multi in between or some with a 10 -15 hrs on Seneca/ Duchess, still they are all captains, how did they pass the sim check rodes & how did they make captains, ??? Well they all had to work hard to make it..... & they did & some got dropped from the sim training & sent back........ As far as 250 hrs fresh CPL's getting to fly CRJ, Your example of the ill fated crash with a very well qualified Instructor on board proves that experience alone is not enough....... Most of the charter pilots forget, bigger aircrafts is all procedures, CRM & FMS etc etc & we may not like this but it is true..... Wish all the new hires good luck & rest all be happy that airlines are finally at a point that they are desperate that they are even absorbing 250 hrs freshers, they will have no choice but to hire us also one day, so our turn can also be not very far behind....... If winter is almost gone, can spring be far behind......!!!! |
Originally Posted by cencal83406
(Post 977485)
Can we try this one again? In English this time, please?
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props to my fellow FIT alum (or alum to be...)
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I'm not a fan of this bridge program. I think it's a little crazy to have a wet com pilot in front of a crj. I think at a minimum at any airline no matter the economy, how desperate the airlines are, there should be a min of 500 hrs to be able to sit right seat on any airline. Just imagine what would happen if the captain had a heart attach and this sub 300 hr pilot now has to make a decision on their own with people's lives behind them.
Student straight to ''fo student'' is not going to do anybody any good. I know it's possible to do and has been done in the past but come on. Imagine what would happen if when you walked onto an aircraft that the pilots had to have posted their flight experience posted on the door. I could see passengers wanting to wait for a more experienced flight crew. |
Originally Posted by PinkSlip
(Post 977019)
Pinnacle hiring 250 hour wonder-boy pilots is an accident waiting to happen. I will refuse to fly with them in the front, or if I'm in the back deadheading. Why on earth would management want to hire "NON-Seasoned" pilots is beyond my comprehension. This is a new low.
We need "seasoned" pilots to fly jets for the airlines. For those of you with 250 hours, "seasoned" means having experience flying in multiple seasons, multiple winters dealing with icing, multiple summers dealing with thunderstorms. Obtaining this experience by flight instructing, flying corporate aircraft that fly much slower and require less quick thinking before being thrusted into a 550 mph glass cockpit jet and flying 5 - 6 legs a day while crossing squall lines, getting struck by lightning, fighting hailstorms, performing CPR on 90 year old passengers in the back who have fallen and can't get up while simultaneously dealing with engine fires/shutdowns, shooting cat 2 approaches down to bare minimums, struggling with PCU Runaways, and solving fuel leak problems while the aircraft is solely powered by the ADG needs "seasoned pilots" to deal with this day to day challenges. Otherwise it's just an accident waiting to happen while these young whipper-snappers build flight time at the expense of safety. |
Well this goes to show how these forums are full of "know it all's" who swore that the days of 250 hour wonders were over forever!
Captains...if it's one of those dark and stormy nights and your on your last leg, feeling tired and hoping to lean on your FO a little to get you there...and you get the guy with the uniform shirt so white it looks like his mom just bleached it for him and his flight case looks like it just came off the shelf from office max...call in fatigued. |
Originally Posted by WmuGrad07
(Post 977777)
Just imagine what would happen if the captain had a heart attach and this sub 300 hr pilot now has to make a decision on their own with people's lives behind them.
Exactly. And more realistically, what if the captain ate something bad and gets sick during flight, or had family problems arise that may distract him. Do you really think the brand new FO will know how to handle a hairy situation? These jets need two people to fly them. The procedures are so technical and complicated, we don't need pilots who are so new to the industry that they are more of a hinderance than a helper. The last thing I want in the right seat is someone who is hanging on by a 100 foot rope behind the airplane when split second decision making (diverts, missed approaches, or mechanical malfunctions) arise out of nowhere. At 250 hours of flight time, you are more of a hinderance than a helper in this profession. The regional airlines are going to H=LL in a handbasket with 250 hour wonder pilots, fuel at 120 dollars a barrel AND ALPA representing the majors and the regionals - total conflict of interest. There are dark clouds on our horizons boys. Time to buckle your seatbelt. |
There is such a thing called "The Aviation Ladder." It starts with Cessnas as the bottom step, then duchesses and barons, then king airs, then saab-340's, Beech 1900's, then CRJ's, then DC-9's, Airbus 319's, 757's and 747-400.
When pilots try to jump up a couple of steps it jeopardizes safety. At 250 hours, you should be building flight time in a baron or duchess. Around a 1,000 hours, you should be right seat in a kingair. Around 1500 hours, blasting along at 550 mph at 37,000 feet in a CRJ while skirting a thunderstorm, that's still alot for a 1500 hour pilot, but by climbing each step in the Aviation Ladder, you will feel more so in place. A 250 hour wonder pilot at LGA tends to be a total meltdown on the radio. |
Like it or not the regionals are going to need lower time pilots in the very near future. I doubt we will see mins of 250tt again but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see 400 maybe even 350 from some airlines desperate to fill their right seats. It will all come done to $ and management will take the cheaper option every time!
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Originally Posted by Av8tion
(Post 977161)
And in the mean time during the few days the back-and-forth bickering between members has been going on a bunch of short-time flight instructors have gotten class dates while a furloughed CRJ pilot still hasn't gotten a phone call from an airline that's theoretically hurting for pilots... something wrong with this picture?
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Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
(Post 978067)
Something very, very wrong. Its sad that the guys who have already put in the time have been kicked to the streets and forgotten. It makes me sick. Guys are graduating flight school, coming on with no interview, while a guy who has already put 3-4+ years into this nightmare can't get a call. Just plain sick.
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Do guys with 250 hours even pass training? Traning couldn't be that difficult if therse guy are maling it to the line.
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Originally Posted by stbloc
(Post 978136)
Do guys with 250 hours even pass training? Traning couldn't be that difficult if therse guy are maling it to the line.
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Originally Posted by stbloc
(Post 978136)
Do guys with 250 hours even pass training? Traning couldn't be that difficult if therse guy are maling it to the line.
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Originally Posted by The Dominican
(Post 978143)
Having been a check airman who was involved with training many 250 to 500 hour guys I can tell you that most made it (more times than not they required additional sim and line training) and some washed out, but like it or not two decades from now the industry will be populated mostly by the generation that went from cero to RJ's, "earned my stripes" will be replaced with "purchased my stripes" a generation that has very little respect for seniority and experience with a huge sense of entitlement, the generation that roll their eyes when you tell them to put away the Ipad at cruise, the generation that ask "how junior the last captain bid went" while you are recommending more OE after they already have had over 50 hours (yeah, that happened a few times) that is where this career is headed.:(
Good luck to all, fbh |
Originally Posted by The Dominican
(Post 978143)
Having been a check airman who was involved with training many 250 to 500 hour guys I can tell you that most made it (more times than not they required additional sim and line training) and some washed out, but like it or not two decades from now the industry will be populated mostly by the generation that went from cero to RJ's, "earned my stripes" will be replaced with "purchased my stripes" a generation that has very little respect for seniority and experience with a huge sense of entitlement, the generation that roll their eyes when you tell them to put away the Ipad at cruise, the generation that ask "how junior the last captain bid went" while you are recommending more OE after they already have had over 50 hours (yeah, that happened a few times) that is where this career is headed.:(
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Originally Posted by Av8tion
(Post 978138)
... how many flight hours you have or how much "experience" you have means nothing during training... flying the line is where that makes the difference...
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Originally Posted by mooney
(Post 978347)
bingo! someone buy this guy a beer!
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Originally Posted by Av8tion
(Post 978356)
tell ya what... get me a class date somewhere and I'll buy YOU the beer... fair trade?
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Class Date
Originally Posted by mooney
(Post 978457)
I'm game pm me your info for a 6 pack :)
@mooney; I am also up for it bro, will get U a costco case of beer your choice........:) Seriously man, getting something is becoming so hard...... It feels better when we read all this that it will improve, when?? who knows |
must be microbrew or import. No"lite beer".
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@mooney
Originally Posted by mooney
(Post 978556)
must be microbrew or import. No"lite beer".
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Originally Posted by Av8tion
(Post 978079)
Yeah... they need to change things so that furloughed regional pilots get automatic class dates at every regional that's hiring before they're allowed to hire anyone else... same thing with majors at other major airlines..
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I've heard rumors that Parks College at Saint Louis University now has a similar or the same agreement with Pinnacle.
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Munky- pm sent. Call me anytime.
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Originally Posted by Special K
(Post 978815)
I've heard rumors that Parks College at Saint Louis University now has a similar or the same agreement with Pinnacle.
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I just flew with a pretty sharp FO, and he asked me for tricks to fly an NDB on the RMI.
It is sad, when I flew 135, our standard was single engine, circle to land, NDB. I guess that is progress. |
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
(Post 979665)
I just flew with a pretty sharp FO, and he asked me for tricks to fly an NDB on the RMI.
It is sad, when I flew 135, our standard was single engine, circle to land, NDB. I guess that is progress. |
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