No, it really isn't the airline's job to teach RT. The cost of the sim makes taxi time and comms training prohibitively expensive. And ground school is no substitute for experience. A good instrutor WILL expose a student to as much as he can, but there is no replacement for going to a busy airport, day after day, during a push. I firmly believe the activity that is the most challenging and most likely to get me violated is taxiing at night in precip. It sure is a relief to have a useful FO not just someBODY in the right seat.

A 121 airline is responsible for teaching 121 regs, ops spec, and your aircraft. A 121 CA is responsible for teaching aircraft subtleties and ATC quirks. Learning how to fly and talk are the applicant's responsibility PRIOR to the interview.

I think the pace of the communication catches the new pilots off guard. If the busiest airports you have gone to are SBN or GRR. The first time you land in PHL or LGA is a bit of a *** experience. My first 121 flight was into PHL, I think the night before I studied the taxi chart for an hour, so I wouldn't screw it up. That said even after 4000+ hours in the right seat, I still jack it up no and then when I get something long and unexpected.

When I instructed at WMU I tried to make it a point to take a student into MDW (usually during instrument training). Hearing the pace of the radio chatter gives them an idea for further down the road.

As for an airline teaching radio ops, I think it depends on who you are hiring. I know large international airlines that have classes completely dedicated to it and if you are hiring 300 hour pilots, it may serve you well to take an hour and play some recordings of actual atc communications from around the system.

I also think sim sessions should be done with realistic radio clearances and speed. I can tell you at both 121 carriers I have worked at, 85% or more of the time we didn't even wear headsets during the lessons. So other than the PC, LOE, or MV, you weren't really talking on the radio.

I would rather spend sim time doing things that could save my butt and the aircraft. Ten minutes of calling for clearance and taxi would be better spent on three negative auto-coarsens.

Pinnacle training is not respnosible for teaching you how to speak on the radio. You don't even talk on the radio in training. I'd be surprised if you put a headset on before O.E. Airline Captains are not teachers, they shouldn't be expected to teach, unless of course they are check airman. A good captain may show you a few things or call you out here or there but you aren't logging dual received anymore. A good captain will mentor. It is not his/her responsibility to teach you anything. Their only concern is the airplane and the people in the back, you should already be prepared and ready to assist the capatin in safe operations. A 121 cockpit is no place for a flight lesson. I'll back the wonders if they know what they're doing, but expecting to be taught something is obsurd. I want the crew flying my family to be concentrating on one thing; the sports page or the squall line. Regular line Captains are not flight instructors.

DO YOU THANG PLAYA!!! REP YO HOOD!!!! Did you share time with your WMU 'bro' flying to the keys? We "clowns," as you so maturely phrased it, are your future co-workers. Advice to both of you, come to work, shut up, do your job, do it well, and mature beyond your frat days. Put your big boy pants on and get to the grind. Apparently WMU doesn't stress grammar and spelling when they are training you to be a professional. You are the clown everyone is laughing at now. I'm still chuckling.

Called out on grammar and spelling by the guy who goes by "MunkyButtr".... some people never cease to amaze. Keep on chucklin over there NuTTerBuTTer...

Wow, just, wow, you, sir, are, a, moron.

Whatever, this is just turning into a ****ing contest so im done. Not worth my time to fight kyeboard wars on here.

munky, buttr, Hmmm... 2 of the fixes on the Polar arrival into DTW that are located not too far from Kalamazoo.... Wonder if that is a WMU grad right there.

I am disturbed by this whole thread.

Just think in a month they are going to be in your right seat. The good news is I hear the 200 is not that hard to fly single pilot.

I see your sarcasm and raise you the Reality of what the Lawyers and Media will have a field day with.

Again, these guys don't represent 90% of the WMU grads who have good attitudes. There's always that vocal minority... Most of the folks going through the bridge program (some of whom are former students of mine) are humble and appreciative of the opportunity they've been given, and understand that they have a lot to learn.

Son, you need to learn to respect the folks that have a few more gray hairs than you. Flying a plane with 34-70 pax on board is no place to learn how to fly. And sure as heck it isn't the place for an attitude from a newbee. I don't think I know it all, I doubt if Sully thought he knew it all. And a darn well know Check Yeager didn't think he knew it all. Humility is a good trait in pilots.... it keeps us looking for what we have or might screw up.

Sir, my guess is you get it. It seems you have flown a "little" plane hauling boxes. I don't fault folks for trying to get ahead, but unlike you, there are a bunch who think they have flying all sorted out. I won't write off all of your comrades, but they definitely need to show some humility.

Condescending post of the month. He is correct though, humility is important. But if I had the chance....I would have jumped on the opportunity to hop in an RJ at 250TT. It's not your fault you took advantage of a great opportunity. Good for you guys. Welcome aboard.

If he is a WMU grad and he didn't know that, well it would just be the icing on the cake for this whole pathetic show of "newbie arrogance" that I unfortunately (for me) just caught up on.

Negative Avroman, their location has nothing to do with why I chose it for a forum name. To make one thing clear, I do not have a problem with WMU. All the other schools have their fair share of these attitudes as well. I thought we were done with all this "wonder" stuff, but I guess there will always be those "special" children.

What does that prove? I doubt the guy spent time flying the Polar arrival why he was there.

Those fixes are north of Muskegon and Grand Rapids.

Interesting read...and new radio techniques
 

http://www.avweb.com/other/piper-32n...iveATC-net.mp3
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/nyregion/06plane.html

"“Hey tower, I’ve got a question for you,” he said. “This might be crazy, but are we allowed to land on the beach?”

“You know, tower, my engine might be running a little, teensy, teensy bit rough. A little teensy bit rough.”

“What’s the big deal? It happens all the time in Alaska.”

Detective Derienzo replied, “Welcome to New York.”

“Just let us know if we’re up in your grill, you know?”

I'd come up with something clever to say about that... but my head is still spinning... I had to look at 3 different sources just to make sure this story wasn't made up...

You don't have to fly arrivals into DTW to recognize intersections, during my time as a 'double I' I spent countless hours staring at the low alt enroute chart... definitely could have recognized any fix in Vermont. My bad for 'projecting' my experience I guess.

You are far superior airmen to me then.

Also, Not all fixes are depicted on low alt or high alt charts an example would be these two.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=43.13127892...art=428&zoom=3

I agree, its pretty stupid isn't it....APC is becoming more and more like FI everyday!!

While startling, very true. I'll pass my judgement on the WMU situation until after I fly with some of them. I'll give em benefit of the doubt from the start that some of the 5% are vocal and with a poor attitude. Beyond the boards I have only heard good things from APD's and LCA's about the guys.

Huh no kidding... my bad.

My sentiment towards arrogant 141 types that don't even realize the limitations of their training environment still applies, however. I'm really not a super-aviator type... part 61, part 141, wet commercial multi, I'm not the sort to rant on any of this. I just have a problem with the 'no interview' thing.

The justification that you can weed the bad apples out after the fact doesn't hold up in the real world environment of unions, lawyers, and professional courtesy. It takes a mountain of paperwork to get rid of anyone. Know what is a lot easier? An interviewer saying "wow that dude creeps me out" or "wow he sure thinks highly of himself."

I agree, I can't believe there is no interview. Seems like unneeded risk on the part of the company

duplicate post

Have the APD's and the LCA's even gotten their hands on them yet? I'm in the 2/28 class. We are just now starting sims. There aren't any WMU guys in my class. The first class with WMU guys is the one that comes back from MSP on Monday.

Your 9E? What is the hotel for training?

Hotel California - located on a dark desert highway - where you can checkout anytime you want, but you can't ever leave (until your 65 years old and retire).

Beats me, but that's what I heard around the schoolhouse.

i think all Pinnacle Pilots are jerks, who think they own the sky, and are God's gift to all :mad::mad:

Using multiple usernames is obvious. Few play both troll AND flamebait.

I've been following this thread for a few days now. I don't exactly agree with the agreement between WMU and Pinnacle. I am currently a senior at FIT graduating in May, with 225 hours and a CMEL. Our flight school trains pilots from Ireland, Turkey, and Kazakhstan. So while we are paying $325 an hour in a Seminole, they are getting free rides from their governments... My instructor has 2400 hours, most of which is dual-given, and he's still at FIT instructing...Two of his students he had last year are currently flying 737's in India and Ireland....FIT barely lets their graduates become instructors unless they have their CFII, meanwhile Pinnacle is letting WMU grads pretty much walk right in. So, no, I do not agree with this because of the reasons I previously listed. I, however, am looking forward to getting my CFI, CFII, and MEI once I graduate, and learning as much as I possibly can by teaching other students for a year or so. Hard work is required to get a descent reward, it shouldn't just be handed to you...And in no way, shape, or form am I trying to portray a sense of "FIT grads are better than Riddle, WMU, UND" Last November, one of our Seminoles crashed in Palm Beach on takeoff killing all 4 souls on board. The left seat was a pilot training for MEI with 300 hours, the right seat instructor had over 3000. Cause of the accident-> overweight takeoff followed by an engine failure after rotation. You'd think a 3000 hour MEI would have been able to prevent this...I am in no position to judge anyone's flying abilities, but just because you have thousands of hours, doesn't mean you are some sort of flawless pilot. Accidents can and do happen.

WMU used to train pilots for BA and EK. It got put down when the economy tanked and since we don't have the nicest weather, it snows 4 to 5 months out of the year, makes sense to do it someplace south.

WMU required you to have a CFI and get your CFII within a semester to instruct there. It took a couple years at the time to be an MEI instructor there.

Anyone know if Riddle still has their agreements with Eagle or whoever it was they sent their grads to?

What is FIT?

Florida Institute of Technology

:eek:

I rarely post here, but holy crap that's dumb. Unbelievable.


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