You didn't say better.... you said more experienced. If you fail to see how a 3000 hour pilot is more experienced than a 300 one, then there's nothing anyone can say.

If you had a $1 million car, would you be more comfortable with the guy who's been driving for 2 months, or 10 years? Flying an airplane is about MUCH more than who can land better, or who can do the best steep turns. It's about the decisions you learn to make from EXPERIENCE.

I'm so sorry captain that I will never be as good as you are. I wish I could be as good as you captain. I never once said I had it all figured out. I never once said I'm as great of a pilot as you captain. I bet you're the type of guy to say your car has more horsepower than someone else. I bet you're the type of captain to say this is my airplane, you just sit there. I'm so sorry captain. I'll just quit now because I'm just a horrible pilot compared to you, even though you've never flown with me.

Let me go fly my C150 around for 2000 hours and then I guess I'll be a much better pilot then. I'm sure I can pull it back to 5-6 gph and just go in a circle to make me a better pilot like you captain.

Oh, and btw, I'm doing very good here. K, thanks, goodbye.

DetPilot - I agree. Thats my point. I've had a ton of experiences, failures, etc that has made me a better pilot. Thats the point I am trying to get across. You can have a ton of hours, with no experiences or less hours with the experiences.

I know you are new to the airlines and ASA, but just a word of advice. Change your attitude! Some of the line Captains here and instructors won't put up with that. They have send home a guy a two just in the recent few new-hire classes because of their attitude. And Im hearing there are already a few in class right now with the "know it all" attitude. Nevertheless, welcome aboard.

What kinda of ADM skills can do you have with that kinda experience... Ill tell you VERY LITTLE.

Like I said if any Regional or any Airline for that matter have an Incident or Accident that dont turn out well and someone with your level of experience was a part of the crew The Media will have a Field Day and so will the Lawyers.

In one respect I am glad you are NOT at 9E. I have had the pleasure of meeting (and will be flying with) many of the lower time guys. They are polite, sharp, and ready to learn through experience. I hope you make it through your first year with that attitude (sarcasm)- or do you only let that out on a public message board?

I mean you no ill will, but I am appalled by your attitude with 500 hours. I was there once too and it was at about that time that I had a "never do that again" moment. Ironically in a C310. It was a humbling experience that thousands of hours later still reminds me that you can never know everything and no matter how much experience you have every flight will bring a new challenge.

higney85 the problem with people with his kinda attitude is they do not know what they do not know.

We've all had them. He's just overdue for one that will hopefully calm him down.

Believe me, at 500 hours you have some time. Some. But you have little actual experience...and you need to take a step back and realize that instead of arguing that you're "experienced" with airline pilots who have been in your situation and are now looking back and telling you that they've been in your situation and know you aren't as experienced as you think you are. Thinking you know everything at this point is a quick way to put one into the ground. If you think that talking up a collegiate flight program full of single and multi engine piston time is going to convince anyone here that you are qualified to fly a 50,000 pound, 450 knot regional jet, you're sorely mistaken. :rolleyes:

wow. You really think I said the things I said because of my ego? I drive a 99 civic. I treat my crew members with respect. I do not have a I am better than you attitude and want everyone to be the best they can. The reason I have this attitude is because I have a family that expects me to come back home. The people in the plane have put their trust in me and my flight crew to get them around the country safely. This is a job that requires training and experience. It is not a game.

well said +1

Great post.

you the purple one on 24'' rims at spot 4 in MEM parking lot?

More importantly, I would rather be in the back of the 310 with you, than in the back of the RJ with WMU.

1 good thing about sub 500 hour FO's....they can normally outfly me on a clear VFR day from MEM to GPT with a 10 mile straight in final and set up the FMS/ACARS faster/better than Chuck Norris.
2nd good thing about sub 500 hour FO's....watching the deer in headlight look when they get a generator failure at rotation on a beautiful VFR day and you have to have eveyone on the airplane perform that scene from "Airplane!" where they all slap him and are lined up with progressively bigger weapons to snap him out of it...."Oh Captain, I'll handle this. CALM DOWN GET AHOLD OF YOURSELf!!!" SLAP!

you answered your question with another question... thats annoying. someone with 3 or 4 times the hours as you would, by definition, have more experience.

Nobody's better than Chuck Norris.

Lol, I can't believe we're having this conversation with Captain Green Jeans.

I would rather fly with any of the pilots from the accidents you mentioned over you simply because of your attitude. You are in for a rude awakening. Grow up. You don't belong in the same room as any of the pilots you are comparing yourself to, you are a trainee who hasn't turned an engine yet. I know someone who played ball with LeBron James in high school but he sucks at basketball. I just ate at a new restaurant and paid 10 bucks for a burger, but the cook only worked at McDonald's for a week prior and the burger sucked. Your attitude is the reason people get ****ed at the "wonders." I've tried to back people like you in previous posts but now I feel like I put my foot in my mouth. I hope you make it through and I hope you have your come to Jesus, see the light experience, but I sure as hell hope my family isn't on your plane. Your attitude is whats wrong with the "wonders." 500 hours doesn't flying to Key West (which by the way is nice most of the time and when its not I guarantee you didn't fly near any clouds) doesn't make you Chuck Yeager, be humble and be ready to learn cause it'll happen fast when you least expect it.

wmu- how old are you out of curiousity? Are you 25-26 from your username?

It's not bait, just curious.

I'm guessing he's older than your pony but younger than Shay's llama...

My pony was sacrificed before birth. Poor pony.

It is scary how cocky some people are. Don't judge WMU pilots by this guy. I know there is a HUGE difference between flying simulated approaches and flying a real one with souls on board. I agree that experience is one of the best tools a person can have. I have always been the guy who asks, "what can I do better," even if I thought I did a perfect job. I will continue to do that throughout my career. And I'm not afraid to say that I will ask LOTS of questions from the get go. Getting answers takes out all the guess work. I think this is how you begin to build experience. Take a look at Pinnacle's guiding principles. There's a section about commitment to personal development and one about respect for all Pinnalce people. Bottom line... I think it's ok that pilots help out pilots. I'm willing to soak up all the knowledge I can. Experince comes from experince.

I bet just by reading this, your classmates can figure out who you are. There's always "that guy" in training. I feel bad for your sim partner.

The senior 700 guys aren't going to put up with this type of attitude from you and will send you home crying. For everyones sake I sincerely hope you are able to change your attitude prior to starting sims or the training department will be more than happy to send you packing. I also hope you fly with the white dragon out of IOE. You two are a match made in regional heaven.

Unless your career is perfect, you'll never outlive the low-time stigma. That's why people knock the Colgan FO who panicked when her CA decided to put the aircraft into an unusual attitude.

I would bet that if a 10,000 hour pilot crashed a jet the media and MMQBs would jump all over the fact that years ago, that pilot got hired with 250 to 500 hours.

Way to be optimistic!

"Doctor, you're wanted on the phone."

Optimism is something you will rarely find on these boards....:cool:

Ehhhhh, the last thing I want to do is jump into this flame fest, but I take issue with this statement. I don't think that would be the case the all. I don't see why it would be pertinent information if a 10,000 hour captain with 3,000 in type started his career with only 500 hrs of GA flying 15 years prior. Low time is a stigma, but this is one part of the argument I disagree with.

I agree with Cencal, it's about the sensationalistic journalism about it. When was the last time you heard a plane go down with out the CNN/MSNC/FOX "experts" making it a boring event? Why report technical facts that will bore everyone when you can use initial low time, the juicy text message the CA sent his FA that night, and the beer the FO had 13 hours prior to add some spunk to the stoury?

I don't intend it as a flame at all. I just realize that the way some low time pilots act and the fact that "previous" low timers have been involved in some pretty spectacularly bad accidents that it would be the first thing that people jump on when something happens. Btw... Not if, when.

The way I read these arguments knocking low time guys, even the ones that don't involve ego, I interpret it as once you hit 121 flying you will (hopefully) never experience the types of experiential moments that give you the "never try that again" boundaries and the foresight to see if something is rapidly going down the tubes.

Correct me if I am wrong but that does seem to be a strong premise of the night cargo or CFI argument. Therefore, I don't think based on these that those folks would trust the 10,000 hour low timer.

Interesting wrinkle to "CFI before 121"... Wasn't the 3407 FO previously an instructor? So it could be argued that CFIing doesn't necessarily provide the reaction tools... It may well be dependent on the individual.

And it'll be even better when that incident is caused by a disgruntled captain who's wasted off his a$$ because he's upset about the newb he has to coach for a trip... SERENITY NOW!!!!

I am appalled.... Somebody on here actually has the maturity and class to give advice to a new guy without telling him to fly into a tornado/hailstorm/hurricane. Take whats been said here and listen up, be humble and LEARN!! The only way that we as young pilots can change anyone's attitude about us is to be way better than expected. Set that bar high gentleman (and ladies)!! Thank you for providing some useful info on how to act like a professional, we appreciate it.

I don't mind "coaching" an newbie on airplane specific characteristics or procedures and airline specific operations. I should not have to coach basic IFR or radio procedures or IAS vs TAS vs GS or basic aerodynamics like this....

FO..."Ground Flagship 5900"
ground..."go ahead"
FO....."flagship 5900 holding short of papa"
ground..."flagship 5900 what gate are you going to?"
FO......."A3"
ground...."flagship 5900 taxi via papa mike mike6 to the gate"
fo.....'uhhhh...roger" (even though i have no clue what the route is)

at this point in the career, do I really need to tell them to turn those 6 or more sentences into 2 by using the basic who you are, where you are, and what you want to do primary radio etiquette?

Nope... Absolutely not. But that sounds a lot more like the training departments fault then anything else. If this guy cant even talk on the mic, how did he mange to bumble his way through training?? Hate to say it, but if he managed to make it all the way to the flight line, somebody who is NOT a 250 hour "wonder" should have washed him out a long time before you flew with him. Maybe we shouldn't be focusing so hard on the skill of new pilots and be spending a little more time looking into the skill of those who are supposed to be teaching them.

But no, I dont think you should be held responsible for teaching FO's how to speak.

agreed...but we need to be looking at his primary/instument/cfi/commercial training, not the airline's training that he was hired at. They slip through because nowhere from your interview, through ground school, through sims and PC are you really required to talk to ATC on the radio, until you get to IOE. it is rightfully assumed you know these things. And lets face it, you're probably not gonna bust a newbie on IOE just for his lack of radio etiquette...assuming all other areas are progressing normally. it's hard to undo 250 hours of poor radio communication skills in 25 hours of OE...

I completely agree, radio skills are one area that a lot of new guy's will probably struggle in. However, i feel like the airline who is training said new guy should do a better job teaching radio etiquette during the training process. I feel like radio skills are only acquired through a good cfi, and i was fortunate to have one that insisted we fly in high traffic areas where ATC communication was 100% nessacary. That is how i learned, but not all cfi's are like that. So while i agree that radio skills need to be seriously improved upon, I think that standardization of ATC skills should be a part of 121 ground school. If we are being examined in every other aspect of our pilotage skills, the radio should not be left out. Thats pretty scary that the first time real radio skills are used is during IOE, and I can see why that would make a captain nervous.

Chill out bro, your not gonna change anybody's mind talkin sh!t and throwin out abbreviations left and right. Many have tried and it never works. These guys dont care about what you know, only about how many less hours you have than them. We went to school together and I know ure a legit pilot, now you just have to prove that to everybody senior to u. Do your thing and prove these clowns wrong. Actions speak louder than words, thats just the way it is.

I didn't mean to imply that you were flaming anyone, just that this had turned into a derisive debate. For the record, I agree that sensationalism gets WAY out of hand when the media gets their teeth around any aircraft incident or accident, but a lot of it is usually misplaced or contains misinformation. You know hearing the media talk about airplane incidents drives you crazy, like how "the pilot" guided that Southwest plane to a safe landing in Yuma. I didn't realize Southwest was doing single pilot operations now. We can all appreciate the difference between CFI or GA experience and 121 experience, but I don't think that negates the lessons that can be learned in the 121 world. You may not learn anything as a result of something especially stupid or dangerous you accidentally did but you're still gaining good hard IFR skills that increase your ADM ability and make you a better pilot. Maybe your stick and rudder skills diminish if you just turn on the auto pilot on and off at 1000 agl, but my point, I suppose, is that the public doesn't recognize that difference (and maybe for good reason). Once a guy has 10,000 hours in anything, I don't think anyone would care if he only had 250 hours of CFI time a decade before because the public only cares about his ability to fly the big jet they're riding on and if he's got a big four digit number worth of time, well by golly he must know what he's doing. You can argue that maybe that's a naive viewpoint, but that's the viewpoint I think they and the media will take. Personally, I think a guy with 9,500 hours of large category jet 121 time has been through more than enough to give him some good ADM ability and I wouldn't give a second thought if he had been a low time hire years before.

Also, the 3407 FO taught in the Phoenix area, just like I did, and while you
may get a bunch of flight time it's all in severe clear. I picked up about 0.3 of actual during the year and half I was down there, so it's certainly not going to teach you how to fly in ice. Also, she wasn't the PF, so while yeah, she probably could have got on and shoved the yoke forward when the shaker went off, how many FOs would be a bit conflicted about taking the controls from the captain? Or fighting for the controls if that were the case? Yeah of course, your life is on the line too, and I'm not saying she was right to just sit there and dump the flaps, but I feel like that whole thing happened so fast that there wasn't much she could have done despite her CFI experience.

No, you absolutely shouldn't but that's example is the kind of thing that can catch even the most experienced CFI off guard. I was hired with about 1000 hours to fly a Caravan in a passenger scheduled 135 outfit, and the first time I landed at O'Hare and got "taxi to 32L at Tango 10 via right Alpha, Alpha 17, cross Bravo behind the Embraer, Mike 2, Mike, Tango, tower on Mike 120.75" I was like uhhhhhhhh, one more time, I had you up to the Embraer. The problem is when you CFI even for thousands of hours, you're usually at a slower airport, sometimes non towered, and even if it is a busy tower, you're always coming and going from the same place so your taxi instructions are always the same. I instructed at the busiest GA airport in the country, KDVT, and even then it was always "taxi to the ramp via Alpha, give way to whoever." I think taxi clearances at a big airport are the hardest thing to get your head wrapped around and it's the kind of thing you're going to have to learn on the line.

You misunderstood my post...I'm not talking about what taxi route to expect and drinking from a firehose taxi clearances at a major unfamiliar airport (however alot of that confusion can be reduced at the gate or at cruise with a good common sense study of the airport diagram)....I'm talking about saying in 1 sentence what it takes some 4+ transmissions to get out..."ground flagship 5900 on bravo short of papa taxiing to gate 3"......instead of making 4 transmissions out of that one sentence...

You're right, I did misunderstand your post. Fair point.

"Flagship can you take an intersection departure?"

"Roger but we can't flex."

ha ha sometimes I think MEM ops talks better on the radio!:D