I hope not. Probation should never replace the interview process.

$26,000/year is still poor. That's only $13/hr assuming a 40 hour work week. And I am pretty sure most pilots are on duty for more than 40 hours a week.

Man forget these haters. I never post here just because of the ridiculous arguments that are constantly spiraling out of control. Why??? Because these old fools are looking at things the wrong way. Instead of knocking these low time new hires, take the opportunity to try and shape them into what you want pilots to be like in 20 years!!! You have the power here! Im a young pilot who will hopefully be applying to a regional soon, and im hoping i can find better role models to learn from the the grumpy old men who frequent this forum. Set the booze down for 2 seconds and realize you have an opportunity to shape the future of the profession. Yeah some of us low timers are clowns who aren't worth the air they breathe but guess what.... SAME GOES FOR THE REST OF YOU!! So while this new agreement might not be perfect, and it might have ruffled a lot of feathers; remember that you experienced pilots are who us young guys are looking up to. And for the ignorant A**holes who are gonna tear this post up just because im a newb..... **** OFF!!! Your the only person who respects your ideas and ideals. The rest of us are moving on without you.

Wow. I sure hope you aren't one of the folks who gets to bypass the interview.

Oh, and one of the qualities I look for is respect. Telling me to F-off won't win you any points.

Just one more example of this youthful generation wanting everything right now... Don't want to put in the time and effort and always looking for a shortcut or the easiest way out. You can teach a retarded monkey to push buttons in a 121 environment. I don't doubt that. But that doesn't make them a good pilot or an asset to your crew. It makes you a warm body to occupy a seat. You just wait till you take your fast track into a regional and you're hanging onto the tail of the plane for the first 1000 hours and then come back and say you still were fully prepared to operate a jet and it was perfectly safe the whole time. Although with your "screw you all" attitude I doubt you'll make it through OE.

name 5 regionals that make more than 26Hr. That figure you gave is guarantee, which we fly more than 75. Second year is 31Hr and shortly after your second year you're looking at upgrade. Out of curiosity which airline do you work for that allows you to cast stones from a glass house?

Really? I only went over guarantee 2 times last year, totaling a whopping 4 extra hours pay over guarantee for the year. Oh and as a reserve I get the least possible days off every month.
2nd year upgrade? Our reserve fo's have been here about 3 years and counting now. Granted who knows after May 1 and SLI but for now, good luck with your hopes.

ENTITLEMENT ENTITLEMENT ENTITLEMENT!!!!!

This is why we have such a high failure rate at Pinnacle. It has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with examiners turning the heat up in the simulators. Anyone should be able to fly through moderate turbulence, high radio chatter, in mountainous terrain, multiple failures caused by the result of ONE failure "a rotor burst", which leads into cabin smoke, engine fire, un-commanded thrust reverser, electrical problems, hydraulic failures, fuel leak, aileron jam, stab trim runaway, APU auto-shutdown, while the flight attendant distracts you by calling continuously, meanwhile your doing the single engine departure procedure from Helena!!! One failure can cause all of that. It's bull-crap if you can't maintain ATP standards with this scenario.

YOU'D FAIL ON ONE REASON ALONE ------ ATTITUDE!

Mesaba was hiring a bunch of low time guys a few years ago and I had the privilege of flying with a few of them, so I have first hand experience with this situation.

First of all, my preference in this situation is at least 1000 hours and definitely an interview process.

That being said, the low time guys I flew with at Mesaba were and still are some of the best pilots I've seen.

Particularly graduates from UND.

The Big Colleges have done a good job, from what I've seen, preparing these guys for a Regional Airline job.

Come in, be willing to learn, have a good attitude, I can stand you for a 4 day, you'll be fine.

Yeah well respect is earned... And I feel that the pilots who educate new hires and work with them to become accomplished and safe operators will get the respect you are talking about, at least from me. However, if you think that berating and mocking a new hire to the point that he/she becomes as jaded as you is a good idea, i'd imagine the seat you sit in doesn't even respect you. If you want respect from a young pilot, who in your opinion knows nothing of this industry or what they are doing, educate them. If they dont listen, they're a moron, but i guarantee ill be listening to every word, watching every move and doing my best to be a professional.

Respect IS earned. Telling me and everybody else to F-Off is NOT a way of earning respect.

My job as a 121 CA is NOT to teach basic airmanship, radio telephony, or IFR regulations. What I do teach is how to MANAGE a flight in a multi crew environment, quirks of ATC particular locations, and subtleties of our aircraft. This is PhD stuff. Until you have your Masters, you probably aren't ready.

Finally, LISTEN to this: there are a bunch of grumpy people on this board. There are also a bunch who simply tell it like it is. I'd like to think I am one of them. If you don't like what I say or choose to ignore it, that is your prerogative. But the fact remains, this industry is tough, sometimes cruel. If you LISTEN to some of these old farts, you might be able to avoid some of the mistakes they have made. Or, you can ignore us all, screw up the same ways we did and some we never imagined; all the while, we will just shake our heads and say, "We warned you." (Read my signature)

Wow to the last post you made lol and wow to this one.

Apparently you're not listening because throughout this whole thread, pilots have been saying how bad of an idea it is to allow pilots with 0 real world experience sit in the seat that you've mentioned a few times, and you're not listening.

As for the old farts comment, how old are you? I ask because I'm 24, and I believe that it should be at least 1000hrs to be in the right seat of an RJ, but apparently that constitutes me as an old guy, right?

I won't even go off on any kind of rant because I'm not a fan of working for the airlines (no offense to anyone on here!) but aviation is a VERY small community. I worked aerial survey for a season. 7 months on the road and I couldn't believe how many pilots I met for the first time who knew pilots that I knew, or knew aircraft that I've serviced (working line). Walk around with an entitled attitude, and not only will nobody want to work with you, no one will want to vouch for you when the time comes for you to make the step into an interview. This career is all about networking and who you know.

Let's all settle this over a round of beers

Well said, my friend! (P.s. I'm not a 121 CA).

Words to live by.

This point should not be minimized. This is one of the most important skills in flying.

The notion that instructor experience doesn't benefit airline flying is wrong and is mostly presented by those with either no experience as an instructor prior to airline flying or they instructed with the wrong attitude (i.e. strictly time building). In addition to the above, giving instruction develops decision making, PIC skills, CRM, basic flying skills, etc.

One should keep in mind the saying about flying 1 hour 1000 times or flying 1000 hours. Experience mileage depends on one's attitude.

Spot on. My pet theory; Management wants to hire glassy eyed flight school grads with SJS to instill the attitude that it is ok to pay peanuts. When one doesn't "work the trenches" as an instructor and/or 135 or come up through the military, they have less of an appreciation for the profession. Is it the fault of these grads? No. Heck, I didn't know any better at the time either and I would have jumped on the opportunity. This is management's fault and this kind of poop needs to be prevented via Collective Bargaining Agreements.

My .02

To any low time, direct entry applicants:

Any program that allows such low time entries only serves to undermine the
entire aviation industry. NO OTHER REAL PROFESSION would ever allow this into their ranks. Do you honestly believe the American Dental Association would allow yourself to be called a Dentist with zero experience??? NO WAY. They would kill the concept because it would demean what it means to be a Dentist.
Managment knows that if you continue to ease the entry process of becoming a pilot, there will never be a pilot shortage. There will be legions of low skilled pilots ready to come online very quickly should the need arise. This allows wages to be kept shamefully low by their controlling of the supply. In time, you will see this come to fruition, but for now, understand that low time applicants are killing this industry.

I wouldn't say low time pilots are killing the industry. I would say the employers who are willing to hire those with 0 experience are killing the industry. Those who volunteer to your boss to fly the airplane you're currently flying, for free because they want to build time, is killing the industry, and people in the pay to play (I.E Gulfstream) are killing the industry.

If I had 250hrs and someone offered me an RJ or some type of high performance aircraft I wouldn't say no, and there's no way any other pilot would say no to it either.

It's like giving the keys of a race car to a 17year old fresh out of his license test and expecting him to say no.

It's interesting to see in bad times how prolific SJS is in this industry... of all the people you may know who were furloughed from 2008 to now (I know there were furloughs before, but this was the time where the airlines really started to hire the "bottom of the barrel" 250-500 hour pilots en masse for the first time.. and before you complain about me calling it bottom of the barrel... I was one of them..) how many of them are still in the 121 world, either with another carrier, recalled, or actively pursuing interviews? A TON of people I knew who entered ended up going away to what they called "bigger and better things" because the first roadblock killed their nice shiny view of the airlines... of my 14-person training class at Comair I think I'm the only one that's still active in the 121 world... The airlines can be a tough, cruel world.. but the darker days can also serve as a crucible to find out those of us who truly love flying and love this industry and those who thought it'd be cool to go crusin' around in a jet... I guess this is starting to turn into a speech, so I'll shut up now...

I agree that the zero experience students are not at fault directly. They are, however, the tool being used to contol wages by management's manipulation of supply. Mangement's next ploy is the Multi-Crew Rating which will destroy any hope of better pay for pilots, but until the MCR is approved, flooding the market with zero experience students will help control their costs. Whenever you hear people talking of a "pilot shortage," understand that this refers to QUALIFIED applicants. There is (and never will be) no shortage of people willing to fly with little to no experience and this is what these students are bringing to the table.

I do not trust anyone that didn't spend time at some version of the "bottom of the barrel"!;)

And I get the honor of being the bottom of the barrel twice...

We can only hope that the ATP requirement is properly enforced when it comes into effect, and that the loopholes that would allow extreme low-time pilots to saturate the industry can be minimized.... until then, I think we should leave the fasten seatbelt sign on...

hahah

I think someone should tell Fox News about this whole fiasco, they would have a field day with this. Im sure not a soul outside of the 121 aviation industry knows about this whole "fast track" BS, and many of the people who worked so hard with implementing the ATP mins and the public would be pretty shocked. :eek:

Fox is too busy making up stories about human shields.

SWA does that, but its not a function of the union. The airline posts a list of applicants who have successfully completed the interview, and the pilot group can review it, and make comments prior to a job offer being extended.

The media would care for about 15 min, the general public would care until they realize that their fares would go up if they had actual qualified pilots flying these routes, than they'd go back to not caring. Its all about the $$$

Nobody cares, especially the flying public. They only want one thing; get there yesterday for free. If the Colgan crash didn't wake them up or make them care then they never will. What was the last thing you heard about rest requirements or hiring minimums in the news? Some of you guys need to quit banging on these low time pilots. Put yourself in their shoes. Can you honestly say that if you were in the same position you would turn down an airilne job to go flight instruct in 150's? What's the one thing that drives your quality of life at an airline. YOUR NUMBER, we are nothing but NUMBERS. If I could have gotten in with 180 hours your damn straight I would have. Your number is everything. Quit banging on these pilots, get on the HR departments and tell your UNION to make it an issue. If you senior captains don't want to fly with any of these so called "wonders" then talk to your reps. It doesn't matter if a guy has 150 hours or 1500 hours, if hes an a-hole then he's an a-hole. These entitlement attacks are their defense to you already putting them in the same room. Yea some need to check their ego's at the door, but flight time doesn't measure their level of d-bagness. Everyone deserves a chance. If they make it through training, oe, resreve or whatever else is thrown at them then they have earned their seat and it is their's to lose. If you senior captains are concerned about their attitudes and cockiness then take control of YOUR cockpit. The captain is still the captain.

People need to WAKE UP and realize that Pinnacle is an awesome place to work. All you seasoned pilots out there with 1500 to 2000 hours need to get your application in ASAP. It's rediculous that we are having to hire non-seasoned pilots with 250 hours flight time.


No airline needs 250 hour gear swingers who have never flown through ice, snow, lightning, severe turbulence, hail storms, squall lines, hurricanes and tornadoes. Go fly through the weather in your C-152, THEN come apply if you haven't crashed and dinged up your record.

Next time I have to shoot an ILS while a fast moving squall line with embedded tornadoes are nailing the airport at night on my 6th leg after a reduced rest overnight while st elmos fire is so bad you can't see out and your hoping the hail will blow the window out so you don't have to deal with the st elmos crap AND your 250 hour gear swinger is trying to locate the gear because he's NEW, I'm going to file a grievance with ALPA........rediculous, just rediculous.

I'd love to... Pinnacle just hasn't given me a wake up call yet...

Personally, I don't give a hoot about how little time the guy next to me has as long as he sticks to SOP's, is standard and has a good attitude. Any Captain worth his weight in crap should be able to get the job done with an inexperienced FO!

Sounds like an awesome place.

I'm offended that your offended.

I demand an apology, it's an awesome work environment.


Sounds like you were born in the Entitlement Generation. Your just gonna have to man up boy and fly that raw data approach down to minimums into Erie at night with 8 MEL's

To all you 250 wonders out there wanting to work for Pinnacle, take PinkSlip's adivce. Go rent a 152, fly over to tornado alley and don't come back until you've logged at least 30 hours twister time. Remember to log your lightning strikes, take pictures of the hail damage,and don't forget to include those in your application. Reciepts for your hospital bills are also recommended for proof of experience. At Pinnacle we are constantly dodging tornadoes on final, at night, on leg 9, while little lightning bolts streak across the glass so bad that we can't see our hand in front of our face. I was told we have a flow through with the Hurricane Hunters because we're such ballers. Be serious SLIP, if thats how you feel and thats what you fly through then I think I'd rather have my family on a plane with the 250 hour wonder who wouldn't think twice about even launching into that because he's "too scared." I don't want my mom on a plane with you, unless your Chuck Yeager, Chuck Norris, or the Almighty himself, you're not making it to the airport in the conditions you described. Your post was entertaining though.

No

Irony: telling someone you demand something while accusing them of being part of an "entitlement generation".

Very true. There may be challenges but those usually include trying to motivate yourself to pull out the right chart so you can backup the visual with the ILS or the autopilot button not getting pressed in all the way. Not many of us will get to test our skills like Sully.

I was hired with Colgan about 2 weeks ago with less than 1000 tt

I'll start over at Pinnacle as soon as they offer me $35,000 a year.

And that's first year.

I could barely fly my way out of a VFR airport traffic pattern at 250 hours.

(Just a tiny bit of sarcasm here, of course!)

Is it just me or did Pinnacle sound awfully desperate in their airlineapps email they just sent?