More press over our wages.
09-16-2011 | 08:08 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 0
From: 7er
Median income in the US is $49,000 and falling. Most pilot bases are in higher cost cities. Most regional pilots have a 4 year degree + specialized training + travel away from home = should be making more than median income.
I am not overly romantic about 80's regional life, it was a stepping stone then, instead of climbing Mt. Everest now. I did, however, although I did make an inflation corrected (1987 to 2011) 42k as a first year FO on a SAAB, 15 on/off and it had a FO, although I am not sure what means. By the 90's it was well on its way to the bottom, the code shares and eventual buyouts of the mid 80's is what eventually sent it all down hill, although with expanded flying. There used to be many independent regionals with their own routes, some were horrible, some were really quite good. True, it did take 2500/500 and (sometimes) an ATP to get in, and you had to mail a resume/application, which I think is a better way - the internet has lead to a huge flood of resumes. A certain fractional I know has 14,000 pilot resumes on file, all internet. They are obviously overwhelmed and now they only hire through pilot referrals, ultimately not a good thing because like any organic system that is a way to inbreed and get a disease. In ancient days I'd research a company at the library, I think it kept 14,000 resumes from showing up.
I am not overly romantic about 80's regional life, it was a stepping stone then, instead of climbing Mt. Everest now. I did, however, although I did make an inflation corrected (1987 to 2011) 42k as a first year FO on a SAAB, 15 on/off and it had a FO, although I am not sure what means. By the 90's it was well on its way to the bottom, the code shares and eventual buyouts of the mid 80's is what eventually sent it all down hill, although with expanded flying. There used to be many independent regionals with their own routes, some were horrible, some were really quite good. True, it did take 2500/500 and (sometimes) an ATP to get in, and you had to mail a resume/application, which I think is a better way - the internet has lead to a huge flood of resumes. A certain fractional I know has 14,000 pilot resumes on file, all internet. They are obviously overwhelmed and now they only hire through pilot referrals, ultimately not a good thing because like any organic system that is a way to inbreed and get a disease. In ancient days I'd research a company at the library, I think it kept 14,000 resumes from showing up.
09-16-2011 | 08:14 AM
#22
A Second Past V1
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
From: Assumed
The problem most of us have is that this is the only career we know, so how else do we compare what is 'good pay' other than the next company is paying more for a bigger plane?
Short story...dad was Air Force pilot in the 70s and didn't get on board when the airlines were making their Vietnam era hiring dash. So, he went to work at IBM. Late 80s come around, and he had been there 10 years, but UA was hiring again. Tossed in his application, and the letter came back extending him an interview.
The pay was about 40% what he was making at IBM, not to mention I was about 3 at the time. Instead of going airline, he stayed put and got a very nice pension when he retired back in 2003 at the age of 56. Name me an airline that offers/offered this.
Its the same old song and dance. Until pilots understand their true worth, we will settle for what is on the table because hey, its more than the last job or what the other outfit is offering.
Short story...dad was Air Force pilot in the 70s and didn't get on board when the airlines were making their Vietnam era hiring dash. So, he went to work at IBM. Late 80s come around, and he had been there 10 years, but UA was hiring again. Tossed in his application, and the letter came back extending him an interview.
The pay was about 40% what he was making at IBM, not to mention I was about 3 at the time. Instead of going airline, he stayed put and got a very nice pension when he retired back in 2003 at the age of 56. Name me an airline that offers/offered this.
Its the same old song and dance. Until pilots understand their true worth, we will settle for what is on the table because hey, its more than the last job or what the other outfit is offering.
09-16-2011 | 08:23 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Left or Right, Whatev'
Not true... I flew the metro in the 80's and never had to pay anyone $10,000.00 ! Also made much more than $12 an hour to fly it. Not really sure where this guy supposedly went for such a bad deal?
And the pay rate quote isn't rumor either, I’m sure there’s somebody on this forum who could supply the pay rates for many of the probably now defunct, regionals, or “commuters”.
Anyway, a realization while thinking about the differences between then and now was that back then the cost of getting into professinal flying was much lower, but you paid your dues in the amount of time it took. Now it’s exactly the opposite. The Time it takes to become a Barbie jet FO replete with a jaunty walk, ear buds, frosted tips and a backpack is relatively short, but the cost is exorbitant.
09-16-2011 | 08:43 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Left or Right, Whatev'
Your $49,000 figure for median is HOUSEHOLD median income. Take a 35,000 - 40,000 regional pilot married to a 20,000 per year taco bell cashier and they are making way above median household income. As far as "degree, specialized training, away from home, blah blah blah" now are you are just talking entitlements. Do your homework people and if you don't like the water then don't jump in. Quit if you don't like it and get over yourselves. If you think $35K-$45K per year jobs are a dime a dozen in the real world than you are really in need of a reality check.
I am not defending our pay. I’m offering a short story to illustrate the disconnect that begins to creep in as we compare ourselves to the Southwest and FedEx FO pulling that mythical obscene old school wage. And then there is pilot who references the college buddy or in-law who works in that one industry at ABC Corp and is making 6 figures that continues to perpetuate the feeling that everyone outside our biz is printing money, with weekends and holidays off and assistant coaching their kids soccer teams. It’s not happening. Do they exist, sure, but they are the exception and not the norm.
09-16-2011 | 08:49 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
From: Fifth floor, window
Thanks for the correction, median household income is $49,000. However I still stand by the degree + training + time away formula. A family making 49,000K in any major metro area in this country is hurting, as real wages have stagnated since 1970. It isn't just the airline "entitled" types who are falling behind. I am one of the "entitled" baby boomer's, although I don't think I am. Flew bush, freight, regional, start-up, overseas contract and am flat on my ass 12.5 years from mandatory retirement. It is a pity there's all the back biting, being labeled entitled by a mainline pilot and being called a seat hog by the younger generation because of the age 65 year rule. It seems the way things are going by the time the 26 year olds ****ed at the old farts come up to age 65 they'll be wishing it'll be extended to 70.
I knew Metro captains in 1983 making 50K, that's 1983, an independent company with no interline/code share. I also knew FO's in 99's or f27's making 12k.
I knew Metro captains in 1983 making 50K, that's 1983, an independent company with no interline/code share. I also knew FO's in 99's or f27's making 12k.
09-16-2011 | 09:19 AM
#26
Scary...Scary...
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 11
From: Rollin' Down tha 405
I don't think any regional FO should make less than 25K first year.
What we pilots need to do is to look at other careers and fight for pay thats comparable.
Will that happen? Nope.
Am I optimistic that this career is going anywhere? Nope.
Am I mad?
Side note: My GF (hot Italian girl, 22 years old, in school currently so no degree etc) works for Gulfstream (no, not the airline...the manufacturer) as a receptionist....making...wait for it....36K She started a month ago.
...and the benefits are insane...
Her gym membership is free (I still pay 50 a month to be this aesthetic)
She has PET INSURANCE....you heard it....PET insurance
Cell phone is paid for (company pays the bill)
Better hotel rates, rental car rates, escort rates etc.
I'm STILL not even mad....just....
What we pilots need to do is to look at other careers and fight for pay thats comparable.
Will that happen? Nope.
Am I optimistic that this career is going anywhere? Nope.
Am I mad?
Side note: My GF (hot Italian girl, 22 years old, in school currently so no degree etc) works for Gulfstream (no, not the airline...the manufacturer) as a receptionist....making...wait for it....36K She started a month ago.
...and the benefits are insane...
Her gym membership is free (I still pay 50 a month to be this aesthetic)
She has PET INSURANCE....you heard it....PET insurance
Cell phone is paid for (company pays the bill)
Better hotel rates, rental car rates, escort rates etc.
I'm STILL not even mad....just....
09-16-2011 | 09:27 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: awkward
$40k is still underpaid. I'm actually on 6th year rj fo pay...and it is still less than 40k, not by much but still less. I find it stupid how all the mainline pilots come on the regional threads and say things like "quit crying, leave of you don't like it". You're not the one having to do these jobs. If you big bad mainline pilots would stop giving away your scope, and flying till 65, we would not be having this conversation.
I used to fly for a night freight company that could always attract pilots, because of decent pay and lifestyle (if you don't mind red-eyes) and eventual upgrade to the jets. Then came the dawn of the RJ, and suddenly box-hauling wasn't as glamorous as going straight into the right seat of that shiny new RJ, even though that 50-seat RJ didn't pay a dime more than the smaller turboprop commuters that were being replaced. My company suddenly had a hard time filling new-hire classes. What happened? Did the mail stop moving? No, just as suddenly new-hire pay increased by 25%, plus a signing bonus and another bonus at your first anniversery. I'd already been there a few years, but my pay went up too, thanks to the sudden shortage of qualified applicants (Part 135, so 1200 hour minimum).
The young guys like to blame the boomer generation's selfishness for their misery (I'm not in either generation, I guess?), but what are the chances that the young guys will suddenly quit signing up for the poverty-level RJ jobs? (hint: probably about zero)
09-16-2011 | 09:39 AM
#29
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
$40k is still underpaid. I'm actually on 6th year rj fo pay...and it is still less than 40k, not by much but still less. I find it stupid how all the mainline pilots come on the regional threads and say things like "quit crying, leave of you don't like it". You're not the one having to do these jobs. If you big bad mainline pilots would stop giving away your scope, and flying till 65, we would not be having this conversation.
You're right. That would make room for the military pilots, who should start out at the majors, spots at the majors.
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