Resurrection.

Mulva? Bueller?

Correction to above: displacements occur in May.

Sorry to hear that.

Excellent post! I agree with everything said above. I also was very upset with the thieves at ibt747 and would have voted them out. I recall considering the other union that the ibt357 said was a FAPA ruse and not being sure if IBT was lying about it. It was proven true that FAPA was trying to con us when 90% of the F9 guys voted for it instead of FAPA. I still do find it disturbing that the F9 pilots tried to deceive us like that yet I don't hold it against any one pilot. If anything we should be the ones with a chip on our shoulder about that happening. Anyway I hope we can all act professional and realize that we are just pilots doing a job. If I could make more money and QOL flying a C172 I would do it in a heartbeat. Keep the faith and lets all stand united as pilots remembering that as individuals we can do little to change our industry but if we are united we can make difference.

I begrudge no pilot for wanting to be a pilot no matter where he works, short of crossing a line, but I do begrudge the Managers and Post deregulation old school pilots that gave away the farm (scope) for a fat wallet, that have stripped this profession so badly. If management would charge a extra 3 bucks a ticket and gave it on top to pilots we could all make over 200k a year. Not saying that I need or want that much to do this job but seriously even giving one dollar per ticket would make a livable wage for regional pilots possible. Greed sucks! Sorry to go off topic I just really hate the greedy Management of this industry and believe that's where our frustrations should be focused. :p

What was proven? That Frontier pilots desired an option other than assimilation into IBT357? What was the deception? That RPC was a joint council option that potentially would meet the needs of all pilots under the RAH umbrella? The joint council concept is supported by IBT and seems to be working ok right now in other venues. Essentially, the JC is a compromise that could have provided benefit to both groups. Instead, the IBT machine, after initially supporting the idea, reversed course and ramped up their misinformation campaign to discredit the idea as some underhanded ploy by FAPA. IBT didn't want to compromise, got what they wanted (and asked for) and now look what they have to show for it. Basically a squandered opportunity at some semblance of a functional and productive representation structure.

All water under the bridge though as that ship sailed last June. It is interesting, though, that the theme of the paragraph above seems to have significance in IBT lore in that someone is always trying to ****** the IBT in one way or another. Kind of like the events of this week.

I know you all weren't big fans of the 747 (or whatever it was), but I am curious how they spun the story back then to deflect any blame on themselves?

BTW, the reason more than 90% of us voted for the JC option is because it made sense. FAPA was obviously not the answer for you guys and that is totally understandable. Just like we felt (and continue to feel) that IBT357 is not the answer for us. There is no "con" or "deception" involved in one determining what they feel is the best overall choice and then casting a vote if favor of that choice, even if it is a compromise.


2946 eligible voters
2463 votes cast
1692 IBT
643 RPC
87 ALPA
13 FAPA

You forgot those couple votes for SWAPA :D

While I do not agree that the votes for RPC was the proof of deception, I can speak to why our pilots thought it as such. Bear in mind our group's first consideration in a representative body was which one would give us the best chance at contract.

I think UTU and ALPA were doomed from the get-go. ALPA's history pertaining to regional pilots was enough to count them out. That left only three:

FAPA
IBT
and the late entry of RPC

So again, I respectfully ask you F9 folks to try and place yourselves in our shoes, and think of how you would have voted. Here was we saw:

FAPA: Came right out of the gate wielding pitchforks. It was made ABUNDANTLY clear FAPA's general disdain for all things RAH, particularly our pilot group. I think taking this tactic was a huge mistake by FAPA leadership, but I'll get to that below. But obviously, you wouldn't be voting for them. AGAIN, this is how it appeared to our line pilots. I have no idea how union meetings went behind closed door, nor did we have anything to do with them.

RPC: On the surface I thought a joint council sounded like a great idea. It conjured up images of your leadership and our leadership finding common ground, maybe a few bro-hugs here and there, and sentiment of unity to move forward. Great! Yes, it was considered that maybe FAPA realized that their actions of the previous months probably convinced the voting majority to avoid FAPA, and thus RPC was a just a reincarnation of that group, but the RPC propaganda alluded to RPC being a collaborative effort. This was immediately denied by our then leadership. THIS was the deception. RPC's propaganda claimed that our leadership had helped form and was support of the joint council, but the EXCO vehemently denied having anything to do with it.

I've never really been that impressed with our union. For me, and I believe I speak for many of us, voting IBT was simply the lesser of evils. They were, and probably are, our best chance at a contract.

So, who would have voted for? The group the hates you, the group that lied to you, or the other group?

Back to FAPA: Again, as I posted in another thread: There was a growing sentiment among our pilot group of doubt for the IBT. I truly believe that IF FAPA had taken a different approach, one of being willing to unite with our group, things could have gone very differently. Even WITH an integration proposal that had us junior to all F9 (which I don't necessarily disagree with, and is not popular opinion with my co-workers) FAPA could have leveraged their experience, and coupled with a plan on how they would represent us and fight for a contract, very well may have been voted in as the representative body. In my humble opinion, FAPA (and RPC) inadvertently did everything they could to turn native RAHers to IBT.

Again, as addressed in another thread, I still don't understand the tension among line pilots. Mulva, you seem a pretty smart guy. You HAVE to know our pilot group has nothing to do with who RAH buys/sells, and how seniority lists integrations go. The only thing you can blame a line pilot for is who they voted for in the union drive. I hope the above sheds some light on how we saw it.

Cheers,

SeaRider

p.s. sorry for any grammatical/spelling errors. No time to proof read...have to strap the monkey suit on and catch the van.

Nice post SeaRider. Glad to see some sane and rational minds are joining the discussion. Maybe we can shame the likes of Stinky and EmbraerJetPilot off of this board and relegate them to the internal 357 MB playground where they will feel more at home.

I do appreciate you shedding light on how you perceived everything playing out. Just a couple [edit: "lots"] of things I'd like to say in response.

I forgot about those guys. Oops.

Do you mind disclosing who communicated this message to you? Was it the message IBT was sending to the troops? If so, it totally feeds into what I have been arguing. I know, for a fact, that certain personalities at FAPA made some comments that didn't help build our case. They weren't constructive, but neither was (except for themselves) the manner in which IBT utilized, magnified and spun those comments, successfully feeding their membership misinformation in order to cast FAPA and Frontier pilots as a bunch of arrogant *******s. I can assure you that we are (mostly) not. I have always been puzzled how we so miserably lost that PR battle, but have since gotten a pretty good idea. It's called International Brotherhood of Teamsters!

Don't you see a pattern here? IBT denies lots of things they've allegedly said or discussed behind closed doors. They knew they had the numbers in a vote as long as they could discredit the opposition. They did a great job doing just that with FAPA and then RPC. They chose wielding their sword (spin & win) vs. compromising to allow the needs of all involved to be addressed. Again, why was the JC structure so bad for the pilots, yet ok for the FAs? Not to mention other IBT represented groups. We can debate to what extent, but I have no doubt IBT357 misinformed their membership about the initial nature of JC discussions and their openness to consider such an option. Something changed after those initial positive discussions (why compromise when you have the votes?) and FAPA/RPC/Frontier Pilots were once again made out to be the bad guys.

True, THIS was a deception, but who exactly was doing the deceiving? Did the IBT tell you or do you know for certain? There is a BIG difference.

Repeating the last quote once again:

Replace "RPC" with "the Company's" and "joint council" with "FO pay raise" and you have a statement eerily similar to what the 357 spewed out late last week. Hmmmmm?

Again, who is the group that lied to you? Do you truly know? It's a question worth asking. I can't tell you for sure, but there are some doozie stories told to me by people who were present behind those closed doors. My hope is that someday we will all have an opportunity to peruse reams of documents to publicize the truths that have long been absent in these discussions. But, by then, it really won't matter as we all won't really care anymore.

As you can tell, I would argue the opposite. IBT is a well oiled machine with a century of playing hardball with management and opposing labor groups. They operate much like political parties during an election year.

Before I quit for the night, I'd like to ask you guys why Mulva spends an hour in bed pecking on his iPhone about this stuff? Do I really take pleasure in it? No, but I guess I'm motivated to call out a wrong when I see it. This whole escapade just continues to bug me. IBT was always going to be the favorite so I'm not entirely sure why they chose to take the actions they did, but then again, it didn't surprise me either. It's kind of the way they roll.

I mentioned the other day that IBT got what they were after. They won and their future relationship (or lack of) with F9 pilots is the collateral damage resulting from their methods. There really is no further value anymore with discussing how this played out. It's done. There are 2 groups of good people at different companies and/or points in their careers who didn't start out hating each other, but have managed to get there. Didn't need to be that way, but definitely a lost cause now.

I'll continue to repeat myself and let you all know that I hope you get the enhancements in the new CBA you seek. Just make sure you aren't being mislead. Call your eBoard and ask them to clarify issues that are contentious. Keep them honest. You are paying them a chunk of your wages every month. They haven't been particularly successful in making your lives better at RAH and have pretty much committed themselves to a contentious and adversarial relationship with both the Company and Frontier pilots. They've limited their options. Regardless of the realities, EVERYTHING must now be spun in their favor. They've even begun proactively spinning in preparation for news that might be perceived by you as signs of a weakness or mistake by your eBoard. Out of curiosity, did the "hostage" FO really get fired then rehired? Did he even get suspended? Could it be at all possible that the Company simply took him off his scheduled trip so that he would be available (on company time) to discuss things. There is a humongous difference between firing or suspending someone and simply removing them from a trip to discuss involvement with RAHContractNow. Anyone know or talk with the guy to get his story?

I could be totally off base here, but I really do believe (and sometimes actually know) that there is WAY more to the story than what IBT discloses or spins. That's all I've got. Later.

And maybe Bolo and ridered while we're at it? ;)

This message was born from observation and some deduction. As I've mentioned, I'm no full-fledged IBT supporter. However, all of the communication I have received from IBT has been entirely professional. I have not seen one instance of slander toward FAPA or the F9 pilot group. When discussions on the local357 board turn toward run-ins with F9 pilots, the leadership has always preached to 'take the high road' and maintain our professionalism. I believe you grossly underestimate the damage done with our pilot group by FAPA's 'certain personalities'. Our group in general approached this 'merger' cautiously optimistic. The vitriol from those FAPA few made quick news with us and sent us running into the arms of IBT.

Again, I truly believe FAPA (not RPC) could have won. FAPA fumbled the ball, and only because the FAPA leadership had a knee-jerk, emotional reaction and chose the "You will never be part of us, we will never be part of you, fight fight fight, ra ra ra!" approach. Or at least it seemed that way to our pilot group due to unprofessional face-to-face antics on the line. I sometimes wonder if the negativity and hostility I've personally observed from F9ers on the line is ENCOURAGED by FAPA leadership, or at least NOT discouraged. I certainly hope I'm wrong.

Well, I guess that is the million dollar question. Only the boys (and girls) behind the closed doors will ever know. I'm speaking from the point-of-view of a junior line pilot only. As you say below, this all reeks of political campaigns. Who really knows who is lying or being truthful. At the end of the day, the IBT DID convince the majority voting the group that RPC was a ruse, and did so by simply saying "Nope, we have nothing to do with RPC, don't be fooled" That was all they had to say to convince us we were being duped by RPC. Again, I never received ANY direct communication from RPC during the card drive. Again, this was all for contract. IBT says: We will do X,Y,and Z to get you a contract, and RPC was silent.

I'm not sure I'm following you here, but again the IBT didn't slander. All they told us was the "Joint Council" really wasn't collaborated with IBT.

Agreed, but will we ever know. Will we ever know what the POTUS says behind closed doors?

Yup. Do you F9 guys really understand the relationship between us and management? I hear it all the time jumpseating: "See, you Republic guys like to fight with your management. Here at Frontier Airlines, we like to work with management for betterment of all" Well, that really nice, but you guys are comparing apples to oranges. You are at a career airline. We are not. BB and WH have even STATED that this is, and will not be a career airline. Personally, I'm fine with that...I am here ATTEMPTING to pay my dues, which has been a long unfruitful road so far, and then apply to a career airline. BB and WH's business model is predicated on low labor costs and the airline is run operationally to be conducive to such. They have systems in place to keep pilots just miserable enough to motivate them to leave at first opportunity. There will always be labor vs. management friction in this situation, and is only made worse as industry stagnancy subjects guys like me to an awful work environment for an extended period of time.

It bugs me too. Is it a lost cause? I'm here because I believe many of you F9ers view us all wrong, and I think it is largely due to lack of communication and, I feel but cannot prove, and inaccurate portrayal of our pilot group by FAPA. Again, I wonder if FAPA is trying to 'fan the flames' as some sort of battle cry. I try to practice what I preach on the line. When I fly with a CA that is negative toward F9 pilots due to jumpseating experiences etc. I try to emphasize to them that there really ARE some good dudes over there at F9. I've had many good experiences interacting with with your groups and a few bad ones. Unfortunately, I think it is human nature to have stronger/longer term memory of the bad.

Agreed, and planning on that phone conversation very soon. Just mulling over how to approach it.

Management relationship explained above. If what you say regarding F9 pilots is true, that is unfortunate to say the least. They tell us they are continually trying to 'reach out' to you guys, but again, I'm just a measly junior FO, with the minimum 11 days off, and a long commute to reserve. I'm not left with much time to get heavily involved with the goings on of the union behind their closed-door meetings.

I don't know the guy personally. From what I understand the company removed him for flying duties to attend a disciplinary/suspension hearing at company HQ. Basically, the union 'puffed up' in his defense, and the company backed down.

You may be, you may not be. I just hope to communicate to you from our perspective, and perhaps discount some of what you hear. For all the negative things I can say about RAH, I will tell you that we have a good group of pilots here. Of course we have our X%ers, as does F9 and any other airline, but the majority of us here are great people. I fear we have an unnecessary bad rap in your side of the house. I'm sure I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I think we'd all be better of with some sense of unity, versus what he have now. Most of us are just line-pilots with similar personal goals. It is the crew-room tension, bickering over union garb, nasty glances and comments, one-fingered salutes, and jumpseat denials I'd like to see end. We're all adult professionals, right? None of this should be an "Us" vs. "You" thing.

Cheers,

SR

Personally it was over for me when I saw the proposals. Staples are pretty much illegal unless mutually agreed upon after AA/TWA. No group would or should ever agree to that due to the danger in precedent that it would set in future mergers. A good integration means 95% of people are not happy with some aspect of it. I'm now junior in my post MKE home to two lynx guys I was senior to in GRR 2 years ago. To me that's the difference between line and reserve some months. I don't complain because those are the cards I got dealt. If it were a DOH merger I would be senior to both. I don't accuse them of seniority grabs. I expect the same from you. Knowing how labor relations outside of our little bubble work was important to me given how the industry is in a consolidation phase. It was clear to me the other groups did not get it. This whole mess has spiraled out if control. Personally if F9 is successfully spun off and they can find a way to show that they are two completely separate companies (not convinced they can do it in the current market) then I want the whole award blown up, redone, let the Midwest guys go with you, and give us some preferential hiring in the future to the bottom of the list above the 20 or so who bailed out from here a year or so ago. I'm more than comfortable taking a little hit to have one list and really set up what should be in place everywhere. Get hired on as a lowly FO on the smallest plane and work your way up to the left seat of the biggest one. Someone always gets screwed in business deals. Its the drawback of a seniority based system. Without a national seniority number it can always happen. If we ever get this TA done the amalgamation process should be entertaining, and the F9 crowd should be paying close attention to what is happening. I know you think you will be free soon but if it doesn't happen the next fight you are actually with us.

Put this dog to rest....
Separate F9 from RAH
Overturn STS
Overturn IMSL
If F9 survives...everyone is happy

Dreamworlds, but not going to happen IMHO.