No Pay Raise for RAH FOs
03-29-2012 | 12:44 AM
#22
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 987
Likes: 37
Originally Posted by zoooropa:1159565
Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)?
Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011.
I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers.
I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel.....
Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner.
You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset.
The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job.
Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years.
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)?
Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011.
I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers.
I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel.....
Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner.
You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset.
The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job.
Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years.
No LOA was offered. This was nothing more than a play to turn the FOs against the union. The company never had any intention of actually implementing these rates. If they did, they would have offered the LOA you speak of. Im very glad you are not negotiating on our behalf. Even with cuts coming at just one regional (pinnacle agreed to nothing) we are still at the bottom of the regional industry. Just accepting the company's offer as you would like to see, we would still be below average. There is absolutely nothing wrong with fighting for fair pay and work rules, no matter how long it takes. We do NO ONE in this industry any favors by not fighting and thus, lowering the bar for everyone who enters section 6 in the coming years.
03-29-2012 | 12:56 AM
#23
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,865
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From: Out.
(no direct dog in this fight, and I wish the best for the RAH folks)
Giving a pay raise to 10% of the people while negotiating a contract means management will have 10% of the vote going into a TA. So let's say the TA is marginal: under normal circumstances it may fail, but with all the FNGs voting "Yes" it could pass. With the buying-of-votes management is doing now, the group could end up with a Worse CBA than if there were no new hire pay raise. In any event, the raise WILL NOT yield a better contract. At best, it would be a break even.
Essentially, management is offering a "Zero down, No payments for three months" contract. They are selling you a car "for nothing" hoping you don't notice the 29% interest rate the remaining five years.
Giving a pay raise to 10% of the people while negotiating a contract means management will have 10% of the vote going into a TA. So let's say the TA is marginal: under normal circumstances it may fail, but with all the FNGs voting "Yes" it could pass. With the buying-of-votes management is doing now, the group could end up with a Worse CBA than if there were no new hire pay raise. In any event, the raise WILL NOT yield a better contract. At best, it would be a break even.
Essentially, management is offering a "Zero down, No payments for three months" contract. They are selling you a car "for nothing" hoping you don't notice the 29% interest rate the remaining five years.
03-29-2012 | 02:00 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2010
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Can one vote on a contract under probation? I thought you had to wait a year. And if you've been around for year, one should have a fairly good idea what's good and bad at the company. I don't think management was trying to turn the brand new hire FOs against the union nor were they trying to buy their way into the 10% of the pilot group that can't even vote in the first place. My 2 cents. But I've been corrected many times before 
03-29-2012 | 03:59 AM
#25
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Port of Indecision and Southwest of Disorder
Ouch! I made more on the Saab 340 by year three! Good luck guys/gals hope your able to get substantial raises/improvements in your new contract.
A contract before raises was and is the correct way to go in my opinion.
03-29-2012 | 06:01 AM
#26
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From: Driving a Bus for Recreational Pleasure.
The company is saying that the Union was all for the raises and then changed their minds. The company's response to the failed pay raise was giving the RAH pilots the coresponding letters between the union, company, and both lawyers, about the pay raise issue. Interesting tactic IMO, since they usually write a response. They basically told the pilots to draw their own conclusion.
I've been in this business for many years and seen first hand the strategies of both ALPA and the IBT. This issue is probably one of the most interesting issues I've seen and it's probably going to be a wild ride to the end. Its kinda like watching hockey. You try to keep up with the puck then a guy gets checked into the boards, followed by high sticking, a few in the penalty box, now a power play, and finally a shot to the net. Good goalie and defenders? Maybe the shot goes in, maybe not. 3 periods last a while. Can't wait to see how this one plays out.
I've been in this business for many years and seen first hand the strategies of both ALPA and the IBT. This issue is probably one of the most interesting issues I've seen and it's probably going to be a wild ride to the end. Its kinda like watching hockey. You try to keep up with the puck then a guy gets checked into the boards, followed by high sticking, a few in the penalty box, now a power play, and finally a shot to the net. Good goalie and defenders? Maybe the shot goes in, maybe not. 3 periods last a while. Can't wait to see how this one plays out.
03-29-2012 | 06:41 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 206
From: 787
Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)?
Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011.
I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers.
I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel.....
Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner.
You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset.
The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job.
Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years.
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)?
Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011.
I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers.
I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel.....
Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner.
You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset.
The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job.
Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years.
However, with that being said an extra $378 per month on a pay rate that is 3-5 dollars an hour less than my peers, after the pay raise, is a slap in the face. What good is that money if we are still being treated like garbage an enacted payraise LOA would only serve to drag out negotiations longer for what really matters, QOL issues. I could lose that extra $378 in one day in EWR becasue we don't have cancelation pay, even if a flight gets re-crewed because we are late, we dont get paid for it.
Alot of pilots have blinders on and only see the hourly rate and not whats behind it. QOL and "soft pay" is 75% of what I am looking for in this contract and pay is the last 25%. With the right QOL and "soft pay" in a contract you can make a lower pay scale work out just fine.
For the record the only thing we are looking for Jet Blue pay rates on is the 190 we are well aware that a 70 seater and a 50 seaters pay should be within reason but none of us are going to vote for anything that is not industry leading in ALL areas. We are NOT goign to let the company drag this out any longer by giving them things away from the negotiations table especially things that are not a real option in most pilots view.
Stay tuned its almost over.
03-29-2012 | 06:51 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2011
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03-29-2012 | 06:57 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 206
From: 787
Our 190s are mainline too. If you havent noticed they say FRONTIER on the side and make no mention of express and we don't fly them for any other legacy becasuse we can't.
We pay for the fuel, crew, MX, leases, gates, landing fees, and everything else that comes with hauling a passenger, there is nothing Fixed Fee about the 190 operation.
In our eyes its a MAIN LINE operation so we should be paid MAIN LINE rates.
03-29-2012 | 07:04 AM
#30
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Too bad United never thought of introducing the 737/319 as a feeder to the 767/747. They totally could have gotten the 767/747 to think they were the real pilots and those 737/320 guys were just paying their dues and gaining experience. United could have slaughtered the pilot group...cutting them right down the center..creating a nasty battle between who "deserves" what.
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