Pncl career progression to Delta
 

It seems quiet around here lately with the pncl mec announcing the negotiations of a possible career progression agreement with Delta. How does this effect your views of the negotiations? Is it just another carrot or would this seal the deal for a concessionary TA?

Flows are horrible, the only thing we should be negotiating for is preferential interviews.

I'll believe it when I see it. Preferential interviews would certainly be nice.

I'd like to hear what DL pilots and DL HR think of a flow from PCL.

Career progression doesn't have to be a flow, it could be a guaranteed interview just like CP has...gives Delta a constant stream of applicants but they still get to pick who they want.

Agreed. I have been hearing flow talk elsewhere.

Our management and union can negotiate anything they want. The catch is what will the Delta management and DALPA agree to. I would never base a vote for a TA based on a flow. The Mesaba one was great until you found out you'd never get called.

After talking to Delta jumpseaters I'm not certain a late 40's to mid 50's capt with 10k hours plus would be welcome. In fact on more than one occasion I was told they'd rather hire a zero time person and train them up, instead of me. Have to admit its hard for me to get too excited about a flow.

I seriously doubt that Delta would start a flow program with PNCL because they worked so hard to eliminate the flow with Mesaba and Compass. I could see a guaranteed interview program like we have at Compass. Some of the stipulations we have are that you must have a four year degree, have passed the Delta-style testing, and a recommendation from our CP's Office. They also will have you sign a document so that they will be able to look at your attendance record.

An interview I would be okay with... a flow, 100% absolutely not!

Flows are horrible. You have to wait for your seniority number to come up. It's all about who you know and your connections. Anyone else remember expressjet when people would quit so they could get hired at cal without waiting for their number in the flow?

Don't you have to actually be qualified for a flow, ie, Delta requires a 4 year degree, with no DUI's, so that would eliminate like half of pinnacle right there....I am not knocking an already beat down pilot group, as I myself are one of them, but I would have to say if not half, close to half the guys I have flown with, have no degree or have some nasty skeletons in their closet...

Got to throw the BS flag on that one!

Way to many in that last group that got hired fit that group.

701EV

If Pinnacle survives there is almost a guarantee of a preferential hiring program like Compass has. Remember the DALPA contract requires 35% of new hires to be ALPA DCI pilots. This program would allow Delta to monitor its new future employee's and be more involved in the hiring process.

Back in 01, the NWA guys were given preferential interview, not a flow down (since there was no agreement of a flow up) but very many of them went to PCL, most of them ( if not all) made captain and enjoyed a relative good QOL while PCL was growing, in a job that was stable in a very unstable industry. Now that they are at DL, it would be nice if they put in a word for their former coworkers. Like in any pilot group, there are some guys that might not measure to step up to DL, but during my time there after 9/11 and specially during my years as a line trainer, I came across a lot of very professional and dedicated pilots within the PCL family, to those that know some of the pilots I speak off, throw a rope down so that they can climb and join you at a career position, you all know that many of them will be an asset at the big D.

We have a retired Fed Ex pilot who was hired in 2010, & I believe he turns 65 next year.

This carrot was offered in June 2007.

http://www.flypinnacle.com/site/our_...incentives.pdf

In italicized and bold lettering, "New preferential pilot interview agreement with Delta."


Total Pinnacle pilots who got this so called preferntial pilot interview: 0

I'm not saying its not happening I'm just saying what I was told. Don't believe me I don't care but I had 3 guys over a period of a month tell me nearly the same bs.

As it is I don't really care.

Actually, I've heard the same as xj200capt and supposedly it was because of the guys that were hired in the last group having a hard time adapting to the SIC role, but... rumor still.

Wow, that was a good read! I think I counted 5 statements loaded with BS!

Many of these guys have only ever sat fo for about 6 months and we all get to listen to them pontificate about due paying and bull crap. Best captains/pilots from a good crm standpoint are ones that have had their experience in the right seat as a "gear slinger" as I was referred to by the #3 guy on the list.

If Moak and the gang at DALPA are offering you guys and gals at Pinnacle promises of negotiating a path of career progression to Delta, be extremely cautious and skeptical of what they tell you.

They strung the CMR MEC (post JC, of course) along for years with empty promises of negotiating a flow/staple/pref hire to Delta. I was always skeptical of this and somehow had a 6th sense that we were being lied to. Turns out, unfortunately, that i was right and they were just trying to beat the clock, which they did successfully since Comair isn't around any longer. After Moak secured our vote for his election and other issues at the 2010 BOD in FLL, we became expendable and were essentially cut loose, but they continued to string us along with empty promises and false hopes.

PCL pilots, be very, very cautious and careful if they are offering to negotiate a path of career progression to Delta with you.

There won't be a flow for us. Preferential hiring and that's only a rubber stamp.

I think it's BS that airline management would do that. And to clarify, I'm NOT calling BS on your statement. I just think it stinks to assume that one would have difficulty training or adapting to an SIC role simply because of their duration in the left seat. :mad:

Don't you also have to wait for your # to come up with a guaranteed interview? It seems like the most senior would be offered interviews 1st. How does it work with CZ? How do they schedule the guaranteed interviews? Seniority order I would assume.

I guess that all depends on personality. Most are good with no problems being a FO again. However, there are a select few who would have a very hard time being right seaters because of their attitude/ego.

Seniority order, 3 years with company, meet all Delta mins, rec. from CP, and your entire employee file available for review.

Remember the PCL pilots have not ruffled the feathers of Delta like JC did. JC and the Comair pilots learned what my big brother told me numerous times payback is a Bit##.

Sure, I can see that. If their attitude stinks, then that should be why they're turned down.

Unfortunately, a handful of guys effed it up for the rest of us. It's an effen shame.

I was fortunate enough to be at the MEC meeting where JC buckled under pressure and resigned. I know subsequent MECs worked their arses off to mend things with the Delta boys but I think too much damage had been done by a few bad apples.

I can also proudly say that's the same day I started volunteering to do ALPA work and continued to do so until the day I left Comair a couple of years ago.

Yes and no, it's not like a flow system where you are restricted from getting a job out of seniority order.

They call pull junior pilots to interview ahead of senior pilots?

There have been a few folks that had a hard time adjusting to being an FO...

If you file an app your chances are the same as anyone else. Then it becomes who you know. With the flow, you have to quit Pinnacle before you can be hired. One guy at Mesaba who was junior to you gambled with this and got hired at Delta. He was well connected as well.

As a first officer I am more concerned about my insurance and take home pay than I am a preferential interview. I'd rather have my doctor bills covered than be a quota number. 35% is an awfully low number. A preferential interview or a flow through given Delta's history will not sway me to vote yes if those other items aren't addressed.

Why not? If all the pilots of the DCI carriers are good enough to fly Delta's customers around then what is the big deal? Especially pilots in the same Union you are a member of.

If a flow or pref interview program is agreed upon, get them to put it in writing on toilet paper....then at least it has a useful purpose!

? What makes you say that flows are bad?

Thanks

Here's one resason why some people think a flow is bad. Typically, airlines will not fill the entire class with flows. The number of flows per class is generally limited. This prevents a crippling effect on the regional the pilots are flowing from due to large amounts of attrition. That in turn hurts the feed of the airline the pilots are flowing to as well.

So, if one has to wait for their flow number while hiring off the street occurs said individual could lose hundreds of seniority numbers to those being hired off the street.

Because you haven't passed the top secret Double Breasted Suit Buttoning test.

I've always wondered this same thing... I'm good enough to fly Delta's customers, but not for Delta?