Just curious how have military pilots got on with delta and not meeting the hourly requirements? Isn't 1500 TT with 1000 PIC turbine? It takes a career for some in the military to log that many hours.

So if that's true ( and I could be wrong) then how did that happen? Are they special?

Could be wrong? You are wrong. :)

You dont sound confident!

I can understand why others are upset if the MEC's are doing back alley agreements but when others base their opinion not about a Pilots professionalism, flying ability and experience but solely on if he has a Degree or not is way off the range.

Even if (which I dont believe) every Military hired at Delta had the magic 1500/1000 those times were never competitive versus a guy with 11,000TT 9000PIC JET 121. So when we talk about standard min qualifications thats not what they hire at. Lets say you have a pilot with said degree(non military) and had those mins and got his 1000PIC turbine in a King Air/ Pilatus. There is no way he would be looked at even though he meets the min but your pilot group is majority ex military right?

Contradiction either way you look at it!

So you're telling me that a civilian guy with 1500 hours is the same as a military guy with 1500 hours? You said it yourself that 1500 hours is about a full career military guy (fighter side at least). That's enough for years as pilot in command.

Let that bake in your noodle for a few.

And to my knowledge the minimums have not ever been exempted for a military individual.

No, wasn't saying that. They are giving the MIL credit for service/experience and allowing them to come in under the basic min which is and has not ever been competitive. The point is Delta made an exception away from their mins every time Deta hired a MIL at those mins. Others are saying their should not be any exceptions! (DEGREE)

Thats the Contradiction..

I think were the only ones on here at 1:53 am...

So you're saying for sure that DL hired pilots below their minimums for the military? That's as valid as me saying for sure that they didn't. They didn't to my knowledge, but who am I or you to claim that you know for sure the specific complete hiring history? However, for sure the last 10 years there have been no exemptions.

Competitive minimums for civilian and for military are different for good reason. It's always been that way, and I understand the logic.

The degree thing on the "vault letter" directly contradicts the signed bridge agreement where they will be held to DL min quals which include the 4 year.

I'm up with the new baby. What's your excuse? :)

I may not have a college degree, but I sure as hell haven't landed on a taxi way in ATL!:rolleyes: how about coming up short in TLH (purple cargo 727 carrier) or running a 3 holer off the end of the runway in the Philippines yelling come on brakes, come on brakes, while the auto brakes where included in a deferral. I guess a 4 yr degree helped those pilots! Yup a college edgumecation defines what kind of aviator that airman will be.

I'd say that 99.99% of those of us with 4-year degrees haven't done those things either. Your point?

My 7 year old took my spot..

I agree. Wasn't trying to say any neg towards MIL, just dont get the hostility towards the Pinnacle pilots without degrees. Were a good group of pilots that for the most put Safety and professionalism first.. Take care of that little one.

80, I know your not that naive. Don't think that a 4 yr degree or military experience prevents accidents.

My beef with this whole deal is that it goes against minimum qualifications that everyone else has to measure up to and contradicts the Bridge Agreement.

The DL interview in the past has picked out a pretty good group of people to work with (so much so that what is considered the 10% at 9E is referred to the as the 1% here). I hope the SSP functions as well as the interview!

My point is the military guys and 4 yr degree guys are the ones that caused those incidents and accidents. You had better read up on the Fred ex accidents and see who was flying those birds. My point is, that regardless of your background no one is immune to an accident!

I believe I missed where someone asserted that having a 4-year degree makes you immune to an accident. :)

You did, you asked what my point was.

Just curious... Since all companies (that I have worked for-five now) have their bad apples, do you also check when you are flying Delta mainline?

And a follow up... have you gone to the union suggesting those bad apples get additional training or the boot? I have (not to protect my family, rather to protect my job and my company).

Minimum qualifications at all airlines are a dynamic thing: when pilots are plentiful, mins are high; when pilots are rare, mins are low. There have been times prior to your going to PinnaColAbba, it took an ATP to sit right seat on a 1900.

I've never flown with someone at DL that has raised anywhere near that level concern. The few bad apples that I've encountered here are guys that you just wouldn't mind not having to spend another trip with.

I did go to pro-standards about one CA at 9E... he actually got fired about a year later. That guy was a doozy. Awful pilot and even worse personality.

Still missing the point. DL mins haven't changed. The "vault letter" (if it states what is purported via PCL insiders) exempts a portion of those minimums while there are 15,000 other people vying for the job.

Fair enough.

But considering regionals don't generally get to select from folks that have a bunch of large aircraft, high 121 time, I think they do a pretty fair job weeding out the majority of the nutjobs. It ain't a perfect world, but I'd still put my family in the hands of any regional pilot rather than those of a cabbie.

And if the bad apples you have flown with are good sticks but don't play well with others, that suggests to me they are not creating a good CRM environment. That can be just as bad has being a bad stick. A good CA can keep personal, political, religious, etc., issues out of the cockpit and keep things safe and professional. I have flown with plenty of folks who I don't care to fraternize with, but they have all been folks I would trust to perform.

Look, be honest, hiring everywhere has been partly experience, partly grooming, and partly who one knows. When it was called the Comair Aviation Academy, getting a CFI there and moving on to Comair put folks on a shorter list than those who had not. Heck, even being in the right military branch makes a difference. I'm not defending this alleged hush-hush, double secret probation letter. I'm just saying don't be so naive.

I'm not. The bridge agreement holds 9E pilots to published DL qualification minimums. The letter exempts them from that.

If they move DL qualification minimums to what this letter is, then it is fine. A contract is a contract, as they say.

Fr8, You need to "re-read" up on the "Fred ex" accidents. I know, for a fact, that you're wrong on one of your claims.
He was a classmate of mine.
fbh

Pinnacle was hiring guys without an interview as recently as 2011 through a university bridge program. Conceivably those individuals first interview experience could be a Delta interview.

But at least they have a "Degree", right? :D

Back in the day, not a lot of guys had them, I flew with many Capts. who were hired by Delta or North East, who were hired at age 18-21 in the 1950's 1960's, who had been flying only crop dusters. Single Engine Piston. No ME time at all.

In my Delta new hire class (1985) the highest time guy in the class only had 5,200 tt, a mix of 800 Mil and 4,400 Civ. The next two highest had about 4,500 and 3,500, they were 100% Civ. There were a couple Fighter guys who only had 1,200 tt.

BUT...we all started in the back seat of a 727, which is a very low risk seat. Now everyone starts in a flying possition, and with the RJ pipline, they have years of glass flying experience in the 121 environment. Degree or no, I think they can handle it...and if they can't, I'm sure that's been documented and will come out eventually. I recall there were a few guys hired recently who couldn't get through DC9 school, because they had never flow steam guages. I wonder what their Degree was in??

What does ALPA have to do with the companies hiring standards?

So all military and civilians off the street must have a degree except the Pinnacle Gulfstreamers......... Lets call a duck a duck....If I had to have a degree to get the call then god damn it everyone else better too. It just one more thing that ****es guys off. So there it is. Is it wrong to be ****ed when others don't have to meet the same criteria as you? No but as grandpa says" That's the way the mop flops" Most of us already see others put ahead of us for being anything other than white or male, this is just one more way to lower the bar for others. A benefit that we didn't get. So just because this is the way of things doesn't mean it still doesn't tic people off.
BTW many foreigners went through that shat hole down in FL, they would have been blocked from an interview without the degree, now they get the interview and have the magic box check, not white. There ya go

Things I learned in college:

Quarters are like gold.

Flip-flops become as important as soap, and shampoo.

Asleep by 2:30 AM is an early night.

New additions to the food groups: Mountain Dew, Doritos, Ben & Jerry's, Ho-Hos and Oreos.

Make sure your alarm clock has back-up batteries.

Duct tape heals all wounds.

Showers become less important.

Sleep becomes more important.

10 minutes is more than enough time to get ready for your first class.

Going to the mailbox was never an ego-booster (or ego-breaker) before.

You begin to nap again.

The book your professor wrote is always required for his class.

E-mail becomes your second language.

Frat parties are exactly like they are in the movies.

Ten-page papers used to sound impossible, now they're a Godsend.

You never realized so many people are smarter than you.

You never realized so many people are dumber than you.

Professors are like celebrities: you see them, but they never see you.

Bum rides, money, notes and snacks as much as you can get them.

Don't burn bridges, especially if he's good in Biology.

Plain pasta never constituted a complete meal before.

The health service attendants are there because they couldn't make it in a real hospital, never ever forget that.

Forget putting the toilet seat down, you just pray that they flush.

Frisbee becomes a contact sport.

Care packages rank up there with birthdays.

College girls are the same as high school girls - just with more freedom, and no curfew.

Pop a vitamin and breakfast is covered.

Learn to love your roommate, especially when he leaves you the room.

You always thought that worshipping the porcelain god was just an expression, but it's not.

Printers only break down when you desperately need them.

Even though the beds are long, they are also extra narrow.

Things that were a huge deal in high school are now commonplace.

You never thought you would share so much about yourself with people you have known for such a short time.

Computer games go in and out faster than the latest fashions.

Any game can be made into a drinking game.

Disney movies are more than just classics.

Find one thing you like in the dining hall and go with it.

You will hear more stupid nicknames than you ever thought possible.

Phone calls almost never happen and when they do, you just don't get the messages.

Cereal makes a meal any time of day.

Keep your high school term papers; nowadays, everything is recycled.

ATMs are the devil's advocate.

Beware the boy in the Care Bear toga.

You almost forget how to drive.

You'll drink anything if it's free.

People still cheat; it's just more technologically advanced.

You get really good with excuses for skipping class.

Hope this prepares me to be a Delta pilot!!!

What specific DL qualifications are listed in the Bridge Agreement? Isn't it up to DL to establish their qualification minimums? Can't DL change them at will?

I thought the FE did all the work and the FO had the cushy job? Weren't the FO calls supposed to be; pitot heat, window heat, whats to eat?

Now you know about the Bridge Agreement?

Are you just making me chase my tail?

1. If DAL changes the hiring criteria then none of this matters.

2. If DAL does not change published hiring criteria and the "vault letter" is a hoax, then none of this matters.

If DAL does not change published hiring criteria and the "vault letter" does exist, then a couple of options:

3. If they hire with a different degree criterion, DAL pilots who notice will be peeved.

4. If they do not hire with a reduced degree criterion, the vault letter becomes a bait-and-switch perpetrated against non-degreed pilots to "buy" their votes to approve of the amended agreement. Checkmate DAL management.

Ugly, but this is a fairly effective (albeit ruthless) group of managers as it relates to DCI flying.

What the hell is a "vault letter" ? Why is it named that?

I publish my sources. Someone publish this letter, or else I say it does not exist.

So where this so called valut letter? Just curious who started the myth and whether or not it's credible. Seems like it's just conspiracy theory for now.

Senior Pinnacle guys without a degree that are hoping would be my guess. I could see a few of those guys down in MEM starting this up either a) just rile people up b) to get people to vote "yes" that otherwise wouldn't or c) put a bee in someone's ear to make it actually happen so they don't get stuck.

T.W. during a road show told me to my face about the "vault" letter. Apparently signed from the director of flight ops from Delta. He said it couldn't be published because of the uproar it may cause.

Imapilot,

I understand what your saying about those that get a break when you didnt thats fair. However to compare us to the Gulfstream image is not. There was a small percentage that was hired maybe 10% not sure exactly but certainly not the majority. That being said, everyone I have flown with from Gulfstream was a good pilot. You see there you go generalizing again!

How operative is a secret agreement?

Do you trust T.W. ? I do not.

I always trusted TW and think he is a stand up guy. I still say the vault letter is just conspiracy theory. I'm sure we will find out soon enough now that the cat is out of the bag.

If he is such a stand up guy, why did he make an end run around the Delta MEC? Why did he screw the other DCI pilots? After all, they supported him. Here is a photo of the ASA MEC Chair walking Wychor's line.