I would hardly say that it was invective. It was my opinion that you had no clue what you were talking about by saying that "TW screwed over ASA....blah blah blah". If you found that harsh or insulting well that was not my intent. Heck....the majority of this entire forum is "invective" if we go by your terms. Perhaps you just don't like it when someone disagrees with you Bar.

So that agreement shows up where in the CBA? Is it in Section 1 a? 1.b? 1.c? Where exactly? Is it a part of the CBA or is it a separate agreement?

It is a Separate Agreement. I think there is a link to the original document in our ALPA forum too.

Funny, I don't think Tom has a degree, like so many of his pilots.

Convenient he now qualifies for a job at DL after passing up the flow a few years ago.

You're right. He doesn't have a degree, he has 2 degrees. U of M grad.

IOW, what you are telling me is that it's not in Section 1 of the Pinnacle CBA.

Correct.

Like some of the Delta JV language. It is scope. It is not in Section 1.

So the MEC negotiates something and then they can't publish it because it might cause an uproar. Shirley you can't be serious.

Does that not sound weird to you? Is one really to believe that the company's financial viability and ability to operate is solely dependant on pilot labor concessions, otherwise shutdown? Somethin is seriously screwy with that picture, and it isn't pilot pay. And a 7 year agreement? Assuming 9E makes it and does well in the future, how much you want to bet that management will line up their pockets with pay increases and bonuses, while pilots continue to serve all 7 years under this agrement. I refuse to believe that a company's business model can depend solely on "making it" through pilot wage cuts.

I don't see how Pinnacle will get anyone to work there after concessions when American Eagle can't get anyone in the door with a $5000 signing bonus.

Without that gift of a flowup to Delta it would eventually have to give raises, but they're likely betting newhires will suck up the pay for a chance at Delta years down the road. The regional model lives on.

60+% of the their list won't be around regardless by late 2015. There won't be any hiring at 9E for a long time.

Wasn't the additional 40 900's that are now committed to Pinnacle based on the paycuts getting passed?

Actually, the "New Normal" has been Delta SOP for 8 years...

Refer to Comair Concessions / DCI Fleet Reshuffling in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, and 2012.

I believe the vote was sold as "Pinnacle Survival - Yes or No"

The 40 additional 900s were a given if/when Pinnacle survives as a Delta W/O subsidiary.

Semantics, and I'm probably wrong. :cool:

Can I just say something? As ALPA pilots we choose to outsource 50% percent of our flying, then get mad if some on the "other side" doesn't have a degree?

"It's ok if they are over there, not over here"

High horses caused this mess.

Bingo! Give the man a glass of cognac.

True but you guys picked up a few NWA guys without degrees too. I worked with one. Great pilot very good mechanic before he got a pilot slot. Was a DC-9 capt before 9/11. I believe he is back in a capt seat now. But generally I agree with you. I guess in the case of the guy I know he brings things to the table that other pilots lack so in that he does not have a degree he does have a knowledge of airplanes and systems having been a line A@P for years that maybe makes up for it.

Slightly off topic and geared to no one on this thread in particular, but judging by the use of English and grammar on APC as a whole, one may be tempted to believe that the vast majority of airline pilots lack any type of college degree.

While I was not satisfied with the contract put in front of me and voted accordingly, this game is far from over. We were told a substantial amount of our list would be gone when the Saabs left as well, it didn't happen. All we can do is speculate about the future, we can't change what has happened.

Those are primarily Republic guys hired in 85/early 86 and there is only a tiny handful that don't have it. Excellent pilots and even better story tellers. Republic didn't require it at the time... those were the qualifications.

I can see where you would get that after rereading, let me be more clear, I am comparing gulfstream to gulfstream. Sorry, no intent to group everyone in one bucket.

Although I made no reference to what makes a good pilot. I don't hire pilots Delta does but.....my opinion, which is mostly all this board is, is that without the degree=no interview. Like others have said, change it for ALL OR NONE. My idea would be to keep it. There must be a way to whittle 10000 applications down to a few thousand to interview. This piece of criteria does a good job at narrowing the field to those willing to go the extra mile. Just like the atp type test questions at the interview. Are you really going to need to know what type aspect ratio a certain type of plane has? No but they know people that research the interview are aware of those types of questions. Those that take extra time to study a huge bank of questions score higher amongst the others. Same difference just to a greater degree. They check everyone's background and training but to get to know a person you want to hire for decades in just a few hours what else do you have to go on?

You are correct for the most part but not in his case..He was hired mid 1990's NW had for a very brief period an internal hiring process they (NWA) was primarily trying to get some people from NATCO in but they finally canned that program after an F/A got a pilot slot and could not pass training (or that is the rumor) and they kept running her through it and finally put a female check airman with her and finally washed her out and that was the end of the internal program. Of course mechanics were not popular in the pilot hiring either regardless of experience. But his dad was a senior Capt and I am sure that helped.

For the record, most of the middle aged career changer Gulfstream guys you had to watch like a hawk their first year to year and a half on the line. They meant well but just had a terrible time adapting to a jet with that little aviation experience. I was thankful for all my CFI experience when flying with them!

The younger ones could adapt better, but then you could run into the maturity issues that were accentuated in the 3701 accident.

Interesting! Something about the FA story rings a bell from somewhere deep in my memory.

Not nearly as ignorant as extremely oversimplifying a Bachelor's degree to "the piece of paper in hand"

YGBFKM, the guy who spent years busting his *** in college is the one "reeking of entitlement"? over the other "lower the standards so I can get in guy"?

"simply flying an airplane"...well there is one hell of a way to look at a multimillion dollar piece of equipment you don't own with hundreds of families behind you.

80kts is by far the most prolific poster of this "vault letter" existing. Doug over at JetCareers says he can get a copy. One of these two is going to have some 'splainin to do unless there really is a secret letter in the Senior VP of Flight Ops office that no one can see. I heard he calls it the Voldemort Letter.

He didn't write "he could get a copy".

He wrote, "if he could get a copy..."

Short, sweet, and to the point! Airline pilots - regional, mainline, whatever should have that "piece of paper" before even being considered for employment. Hope this vault letter turns out to be just a rumor... If not I'm sure the DL interview team understands very clear they are under no obligation to hire someone without the 4 year degree...

Oh yes he does. Tom is very well educated.

The cog test is a b1tch.

Does that make you a better pilot? No it doesn't. Does it make you less professional if you don't? No . Does it make you less safe? Ah NO.

Get used to it. Eventually it won't be a requirement anywhere. If you want to live in a dream world and think your a better pilot because of your piece of paper then have at it.

None of your points matter. Delta requires it. Just like SWA requires you to purchase your own 737 type before you can start class.

Legend,

You are very passionate about not having a "degree."

It is a competitive world. No degree is required to practice law in many states, any huckster can get a license to act as an investment advisor. For some reason a lawyer from Harvard can start at $500,000 a year while a lawyer from Georgia State (which has a higher bar passage rate) starts at less than a fifth of that amount.

While book learning does play a role, stick and rudder skills are mostly experience and God given ability. Since objectively we are trained to the same standard, it is impossible to differentiate.

But we can measure what are considered "competitive mins." Delta's competitive mins have always been a college degree. It appears some have tried to game the system using pay cuts to get moved to the front of the line. Whether it be Lance Armstrong or pilot who trades pay cuts for special hiring rights, our society reacts with outrage when they perceive an unfair advantage was taken to push to the front of the line.

How would you feel if the next express carrier negotiates an agreement which states "for pay 1% below Pinnacle, our pilots will be hired before Pinnacle preferential interviewees."

Your agreement has begun a new "market." The sale of preferential hiring opportunities. Some see that as a variation on paying for a job. I don't blame your pilots individually. But I do blame our union collectively for getting into this aspect of outsourcing. It has always been my opinion (as well as that of the Founders of our union) that we should only allow Delta pilots perform Delta flying. Applying that to our circumstance:

• The expresss carriers should not have hired thousands while the mainline carriers laid off thousands within a common airline network.
• Today there should not be thousands of express furloughs while the mainline carriers hire
• Airline management fleet decisions should not result in a crisis at one airline and a windfall at another, within the same common airline network.
• Pilots should not lose longevity and seniority as management moves flying to the airline "flavor of the day" within the brand
• The fix for all of these problems is UNITY. Structural unity, meaning only Delta pilots perform Delta flying and those pilots are represented by the Delta MEC to Delta management. No exceptions!

So, my opinion is, you probably have more right to a merger than an interview. However, both your and my representational rights are thwarted by a union which sees value in outsourcing my job to you and your job to the lowest bidder.

UNITY should be the moral cornerstone of our association. Instead the Pinnacle agreement offers a false substitute for unity in exchange for pay cuts. That's abhorrent.

Bar, you simply don't get it. You make it sound like Delta went to some random DCI carrier and said...."Hey, if you guys sell out and take huge pay cuts we will give you guaranteed interviews". The 9E pay cuts or shut down was coming regardless. The pilot group had very little if any bargaining power. Keep twisting the facts Bar. I'll look forward to your next round of insulting PM's since I don't agree with you. :rolleyes:

Cue the Michael Dell, bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg examples.

. .

They never interviewed. Ironically, the companies they founded require college degrees for management positions.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact is, it's a requirement right now. Anyone hedging their bet on not going to college, hoping your prediction comes true is a fool.