No I do not trust him at all. He's the perfect politician and tells you what you want to hear. The "vault" letter does not effect me at all, or for that matter niether does the SSP bridge aggreement. I believe the letter exisits but I have not personally seen it, just told about it.

Frozenboxhauler,

you are absolutely right, I stand corrected. I was just trying to point out the bigotry within this thread.

Well, that and, "Clear right, I'll have the chicken" but that was before they took all the meals off domestic flights!

Best advice I ever got as a F/E was from our new hire systems instructor, he said, "When, not if, you fk up the panel, and the Capt. turns around and says, 'W. T. F. are you doing??' your reply is;

Sorry Sir, I was thinking about puszy..." :eek::D

He said that would get you out of just about any screw up you'd caused, and it did.

How did he screw over the ASA pilot group?

I guess you never flew with the ex-Gulfstream pilot that was involved in the Jefferson City accident?

No, no, no. The perfect trip was when the Captain had a good bowel movement, the engineer got a first class meal, and the FO got lucky.

Never did. What your point?

Here you go.(1) Pinnacle secured "committed" aircraft from the limited number available for DCI carriers.
(2) They did this through the use of pay cuts
(3) To remain competitive it is likely that the other DCI carriers will be forced into concessionary bargaining.

His point is every major accident in the last 10 years has involved a former Gulfstream pilot. We can all fly. Some of us make better decisions than others. I am actually proud to be a Delta pilot. I take pride in knowing that almost all of my co-workers are educated. I want to see the hiring standards raised if anything. Lowering standards leads to lower pay long term.

I am proud to be a Pinnacle pilot and the experience I have had here over the last 13 years. There is not a pilot group out there that doesnt have issues at times, yes even Delta Pilots. Your definition of an educated pilot is not his experience but the piece of paper you hold so dearly. I could care less if this degree is waived or not but it does not define who I am as a Captain/Check Airmen/Sim Instructor or co-worker.

Being a professional is an important part of being a good Airline Pilot but I guess all you need is that degree!

Instead of these pilots raising themselves to the standard, these pilots are lowering the standard to themselves. That is the core issue. That is not the type of pilot I want to work with. It is what it is, but do not expect the pilots that met the requirements (the current Delta pilots) to be happy about it.

If we are going to personalize it. Lets personalize it correctly. ALPA represented the Pinnacle pilots. ALPA is run by a President who firmly believes in outsourcing. One of the principle tenets of outsourcing is lowering standards to reduce costs.

To distance themselves from responsibility for declining standards it is typical for companies to outsource the measurement of the objective criteria used. (ie the proliferation of ISO standards and rating agencies administered by third parties) Delta management's participation is hardly surprising.

The trend will probably reach a static bottom where ever the Federal Government decides it will be. "Legal" is assumed to be "safe."

There is no room to improve standards when the primary goal is to reduce costs. To quote Skip Barnette on the subject, "quality costs money."

Being a professional also means recognizing when you need to acquire additional items on the resume in order to qualify for a job. Which is more professional, working to meet those requirements or trying to get the requirements dropped? It's not much different than saying "Well, the job requires 3000 hours, but I only have 2000" and then hoping they lower the requirements rather than go out and make it happen. Getting a degree is not that hard. If I could do it while flying (mostly as an FO at the time), anyone can friggin' do it.

Also, it's "couldn't" care less. </pet peeve>

So, since some do not have the piece of paper in hand, you automatically assume that they have not furthered themselves?

Extremely ignorant.

This is getting pretty old. Delta can hire anybody they want to, Delta runs the company not DALPA. If Delta wants to waive the college degree they can. Please explain to me in simple terms why this is a violation of any agreement the Delta pilots have with Delta or how you feel so violated. I have a degree so I like my chances of competing against pilots who do not have a degree.

Sounds like the second guy spent less money and made it to the big show, while you spent more and are still riding around in an RJ.

Your comparison is apples and oranges. Your simply flying an airplane, not solving the worlds problems. It a piece of paper that cost us much but does nothing except help us join the club. It speaks nothing of the character or the professionalism of the individual without one, but speaks volumes about those whining like a 5 year old with one.

You reek of entitlement.

Brilliant!! Will we have become a nation of whiners.

I like my chances as well.

FWIW, the majority of pilots in my new hire class had Master's degree, or equivalent. A Master's was never required ....

Sorry you don't meet the requirements of the job, I guess, but they're requirements. Yes, Delta can change them if they wish. That's up to them, and if they dropped the degree requirement for non-Pinnacle guys tomorrow, I wouldn't even be talking about this. Most of the guys I heard whining when I was at Pinnacle were the ones WITHOUT degrees saying exactly what you are. The guys with the degrees didn't really care. The ones whining were the ones saying "I don't know why they require just a piece of paper." Who cares? They require it. Either get it or keep whining.

*I* reek of entitlement? I see requirements and if I want the job, I go out and make it to where I meet or exceed said requirements. How is that "entitlement?" Entitlement would be saying they should change the requirements to meet me since I'm "professional" and "do the same job already." I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.....

I agree, he/she is saying you reek of entitlement because you are arguing to actually go out and work to meet the requirements of the job? Entitlements are getting something you didn't work for; you didn't work for your college degree but you are still 'entitled' to the interview with Delta. That is exactly what the SSP is doing. If anything you are arguing the opposite of entitlements - if you want something go out and work for it.

So the Union lied about this deal not lowering the industry bar? If Skywest and Xpress have to be the second cheapest option then this did lower the bar and our own possible future salary. They told us it would not effect wages in the regional sector. They made backdoor deals and then hid this information from their own members? This whole deal was very shady. They also insinuated numerous times that we would be getting more than the promised planes if the deal passed. I don't believe a word they say anymore. I can't believe 85% fell for this, how much longer before pilots start working for free?

Just asking a question. Thanks for taking the time to not answer it.

Are you trying to make someone chase their tail? ;)

I did answer your question. Posted the text of the agreement in the other thread.

The vault letter is under lock and key, you can only see it under controlled circumstances.

Bucking Bar I am not trying to be sarcastic but can you explain the frustration you have with the SSP in simple terms.

What is an "SSP" ?

BS to all 3 counts Bar!!

(1) Good for 9E for getting the next batch of CRJ 900's. After the crap sandwich that just got shoved down their throats thats at least a little bit of a consolation prize for them. If ASA pilots are upset that the next lot of 900's is going to 9E instead of them then that is nothing more than sour grapes on their part.

(2) If you think that the 9E pilots agreed to pay cuts in order to get 900's and a bridge agreement than you have no clue what you are talking about. The pay cuts were a result of their company being in bankruptch.

(3) The 9E contract that was just signed is still an industry average contract. Not saying it's the best but it isn't the worst in the DCI game. There are more guilty airlines in the race to the bottom claim you make so go grip at them and not 9E.

Bar, it's easy for you to say from the outside looking in that the 9E pilot group should have fallen on their swords and taken one for the good of the DCI rat race. I'm not sure how long you have been at Delta but if you have been around a while you took much much larger paycuts yourself and kissed your pension goodbye so it's pretty hypocritical of yourself make such claims about TW screwing over ASA and the "DCI rat race to the bottom"

I am surprised at the anger/frustration generated over whether someone has a college degree or not.

It has little to do with stick and rudder skills. It's more about motivation, dedication, leadership, & desire to succeed. Those that are driven to get the degree show more motivation then those who don't. They show that they possess the ability to learn, listen, & follow instructions. They can excel in areas outside of the flight deck.

As to your jabs at those individuals involved in unfortunate situations, you may want to tread lightly. Karma can be a mean beast. Try to show a little class.

That was before his time.

Do you want the new normal to be that new aircraft will be predicated on pay cuts? Because that's the new normal in the regional sector right now. That puts pressure on Delta's narrowbody rates, makes DC9s/717s/MD80s less attractive to keep around, and ensures that DL management tries even harder for additional outsourced 76+ seat replacement jets next time.

Even under the T/A, 3/4 of the 9E pilots will lose their jobs. 85% did not vote yes for the benefit of the senior 1/4. They voted yes for the bridge agreement, which went away if they voted no. The bridge agreement was a very necessary carrot for Pinnacle to set a new low in small jet pay. Your job was commoditized as a tool of pilot wage repression.

Actually no, it's not industry average, their old contract was industry average. The new rates are considerably lower than several contracts currently at or past their amendment dates. It will put enormous pressure on us at Compass who are currently in expedited negotiations with mandatory arbitration, and, until now, had high hopes of getting a decent raise & contract improvements. All with ALPA's stamp of approval.

Wasn't sure but it doesn't change the fact that his post about TW screwing over ASA, and, his follow up 3 points as to why, have no merit and he doesn't know what he is talking about.

I think the anger/frustration comes more from the back room deals and dishonest manner in which this is all being handled. There is a hidden letter somewhere and you have to call TW to personally talk to him about it? What else is going on behind the scenes that the due paying members are not privy to? The Union honestly believes this will not lower the regional industry bar in the race to the bottom?

bingo.

.....

Jungle Bus took him to school. Saw nothing to add to Jungle Bus' well written post.

Some of my friends that are "yes" voters didn't even vote "yes" because of the bridge agreement. They voted "yes" for the cash payout that's coming in a few months that will hopefully help them get through a couple of months while they look for another job. Some voted "yes" because they think they'll get the 3 months of furlough pay, but I'm skeptical of that happening. They way Pinnacle has been talking, they don't expect to furlough soon, and planes won't start getting parked for a while. The 3 months is only if you're furloughed in 2013. I could totally see Pinnacle running fat for a couple of months at the end of 2013 to avoide paying out the 3 months. They'll still get 1 month if they're furloughed in Jan 2014. There were more carrots in this TA than in a garden....

I figured you would dodge my point. 9E didn't take paycuts in order to get growth or a bridge. Thats the bottom line and you make it sound otherwise. Good day. :rolleyes:

How would you define the quid pro quo? What was the exchange given for the 25% regressive pay cut?

Bar, the paycuts were coming regardless or they were shutting the doors. There backs were pretty much up against the wall. It was a crap sandwich and they took the best they could do. For you to suggest that they sold out in order to get growth or a bridge is complete nonsense on your part. Thats the only point I was trying to make.

If that was the point you were trying to make, then why did you post this?You might have a good point in there, but your point tends to get buried in your invective.