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People are bailing out of Pinnacle as fast as they can.
It's not exactly a good job market out there. You can't quit and then go on unemployment, so you need some kind of job before handing in your papers. The majority of the most senior guys who are over 55 or even 50 or in the training department are not going to leave until retirement or loss of medical. They still have good jobs, albeit at less pay then what they were making yesterday. Nonetheless it is still a good job, with adequate (or even good) pay, so why go to be pilot #10372 at some major and sit reserve for a few years? Other than those guys, everyone else is probably doing their best to get out ASAP. This place is nowhere to waste a career. Well, it's not even a career anymore, really. That's why no furloughs. |
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 1331325)
You all should have voted no on the TA and burn the place down. You have all dealt a blow to the negotiations of all your peers at other companies. The regionals are no place for an airline career. It amazes me how so many embrace it like its all they've got.
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331416)
Thanks for nothing Pinnacle. Thanks for rear ending all of us in the segment of the industry that can least afford it. Thanks for taking food out of my kids mouths just so you can hang on a few months longer. Don't ask me for any favors.
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Originally Posted by GlobeTreker
(Post 1331450)
Protect us? You were already screwed. You're still screwed and you willingly took the rest of the industry down with you. Hey Gojet guys! There is a new bottom feeder in town. Enjoy your new contract. You guys deserve it.
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Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1331569)
Well, in all fairness the pilots weren't responsible for mismanagement and mistakes made in Memphis. With that, 9E pilots didn't help either by voting in this TA.
All this "I'm not falling on my sword", "you all just want our flying" blah blah blah is an excuse that really shows how near sighted many of them are. I can't blame the very senior voting "yes" they're not going anywhere. The bottom 65% however, should have voted "no". They didn't for 2 reasons. Either 1, they were too lazy to get out well before this TA or 2, they were too stupid not to leave. The "I don't want to start over at another regional" excuse is lame. Guess what? Most of them will have to make the move to another regional when furloughed anyway... Furthermore, starting over now at some of the regionals would pay more than 9Es FO top out pay. But hell, they won't see that pay scale anyway because displaced captains will enjoy the fruit of their vote. First year regional pay is a non starter. I've been actively trying to leave to a better job for over a year. No regional currently offers a better job. I don't give a flying **** what a regional will pay me in a year or two. I need to know what they will pay me today. If it's a dollar or more less than what I'm making now, no thanks. What have you done to make this career better for your peers and build pilot unity? |
What a sad day for the airline profession. The race to the bottom will never stop until regional pilots stop letting threats, fear and false hope guide them. The Pinnacle pilots have made their voice herd and Delta management agrees you are worth less.
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Originally Posted by Flyformoney
(Post 1331704)
What a sad day for the airline profession. The race to the bottom will never stop until regional pilots stop letting threats, fear and false hope guide them. The Pinnacle pilots have made their voice herd and Delta management agrees you are worth less.
Well said.... :D |
Originally Posted by Flyformoney
(Post 1331704)
What a sad day for the airline profession. The race to the bottom will never stop until regional pilots stop letting threats, fear and false hope guide them. The Pinnacle pilots have made their voice herd and Delta management agrees you are worth less.
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Originally Posted by Flyformoney
(Post 1331704)
What a sad day for the airline profession. The race to the bottom will never stop until regional pilots stop letting threats, fear and false hope guide them. The Pinnacle pilots have made their voice herd and Delta management agrees you are worth less.
What's sad is it would be a huge payout to go to any "industry leading" regional. Plus commuting to reserve. Next? |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1330788)
Skywest is next. It's all part of the new plan to drive down regional costs.
Skywest is contractually obligated to be the second lowest cost operator for Delta, but Delta waived that obligation until EOY 2015: The Delta Connection Agreements also provide that, beginning with the fifth anniversary of the execution of the agreements (September 8, 2010), Delta has the right to require that certain contractual rates under those agreements shall not exceed the second lowest of all carriers within the Delta Connection program. During the fourth quarter of 2010, SkyWest Airlines and Atlantic Southeast reached an agreement with Delta on contractual rates satisfying the 2010 rate reset provision and the second-lowest rate provision and agreed to rates through December 31, 2015. Delta additionally waived its right to require that the contractual rates payable under the Delta Connection Agreements shall not exceed the second-lowest rates of all carriers within the Delta Connection program through December 31, 2015. If standing on my neck makes you feel better about yourself go right ahead. Now I will go fling poo on the "Major " board about how I am happy to fly mainline routes for B scale pay while I thumb my nose at ALPA. |
Originally Posted by Piedmonster
(Post 1331291)
TA Passed = No Self worth
Criticize me for throwing stones, I speak with the experience of having been furloughed, and I've left a miserable and failing regional for another regional. We barely could make the most minimal of ends meet for nearly 2 years (year 1 pay and recovering from year 1 pay). I know how hard it is. With some terrible life circumstances along the way. Thrashed our savings, and did damage to credit, and had serious medical issues put off (family) because of lack of health care coverage. I would have voted this POS TA down at the cost of my job and I'm the sole source in my family. Me, wife, kid, 2 cats. Screw whether the other regional or the majors hiring or not. If you can't go get a job outside aviation (whether you have no other skill set, or you're too lazy too, you're a fool and shouldn't be doing this job.) Also, I have no degree, and I have my own small business totally unrelated to aviation that I nurtured so as to have a backup plan. Basically, I'm not uber qualified with a degree (or flight training) my parents paid for. I've clawed my way through it all on my own. So unless you pulled yourself up by the bootstraps from day one, I've got no sympathy for F'ing up things for other people because "you have no choice". Bottom line, no backup plan = stupidity. Voting yes on this TA = no dignity. Make better choices in life, and be willing to accept the consequences when your decisions are bad. This business is unforgiving, and if you don't have a backup plan, or are not prepared for the worst, you're a fool. |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1330899)
Be ready to walk the walk. Skywest is next.
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There's a very real possibility that Delta won't hire any pilots until 2015. They have already said no hiring this year. When Delta does start hiring, only 144 Pinnacle pilots per year can flow up. I am guessing half the pilots that interview will not get the job. This will push that 144 down the list further. My point is there are Pinnacle pilots that might now have the chance for their preferred interview for the next 5-10 years. That's a long time to work under these horrible new pay scales. I am guessing the actual furlough amount will be nowhere nearly as bad as projected. Pilots will start jumping ship to other airlines when they start realizing how long it's going to take to get that interview.
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Originally Posted by cosmosdrvr
(Post 1331768)
Then come and get it TROLL.
If standing on my neck makes you feel better about yourself go right ahead. Now I will go fling poo on the "Major " board about how I am happy to fly mainline routes for B scale pay while I thumb my nose at ALPA. The rest of your comment speaks for itself. How mature of you. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by cosmosdrvr
(Post 1331777)
No. Skywest is going to be just fine. Thanks for your concern though.;)
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Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 1331778)
There's a very real possibility that Delta won't hire any pilots until 2015. They have already said no hiring this year. When Delta does start hiring, only 144 Pinnacle pilots per year can flow up. I am guessing half the pilots that interview will not get the job. This will push that 144 down the list further. My point is there are Pinnacle pilots that might now have the chance for their preferred interview for the next 5-10 years. That's a long time to work under these horrible new pay scales. I am guessing the actual furlough amount will be nowhere nearly as bad as projected. Pilots will start jumping ship to other airlines when they start realizing how long it's going to take to get that interview.
They have not said NO hiring this year. Ed Bastian did say Delta doesn't anticipate needing hire. No one from Delta management said Delta won't hire this year. |
In the pilot selection link on DeltaNet it states. Delta is not currently interviewing or hiring pilots. We anticipate that hiring will resume in 2013 but no date has been set. Just read it again 10 seconds before I posted this.
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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1331780)
I was making a point to all those who think they're better then the Pinacle NO voters. It's factual information straight from the Skywest 10-K. You're welcome to call me a troll all you wish, but it doesn't change the 10-K.
The rest of your comment speaks for itself. How mature of you. :rolleyes: I took no part in criticizing the Pinnacle guys, we all chase airplanes none of us are any better than the other. Some are just more lucky. They had a raw deal forced on them by Delta and had no choice but to take it. As far as living in reality. 13 years of musical regionals made have left me a little jaded. I will say again though Skywest is going to be just fine. |
Originally Posted by Silver02ex
(Post 1331577)
Taking food from your kids mouth, really? Are you guys taking pay cut? When is your company filing chap 11? We didnt take your job. If we turned this down and are all out of a job, would you care about us and how we are going to feed our kids?
Originally Posted by mooney
(Post 1331598)
I'm supposed to work to feed YOUR kids and not MINE??! hahhahaha!!!!
Sorry honey and kid, I quit my job so there will be no food and no xmas, but Tony will sure be the man!!!!!!!!!! |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331812)
Well gee whiz Einstien, ever thought that our management might tell us that since we're in Section 6, we now need to match your lowball rate? Or that maybe Delta will just transfer our airplanes and flying to you when we refuse? Ya Think? Thanks again for the cornhole guys. It won't be forgotten.
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Originally Posted by cosmosdrvr
(Post 1331795)
Only slightly less mature than a Delta pilot exaulting the demise of the regional airlines on a forum meant for those regional pilots.
I took no part in criticizing the Pinnacle guys, we all chase airplanes none of us are any better than the other. Some are just more lucky. They had a raw deal forced on them by Delta and had no choice but to take it. As far as living in reality. 13 years of musical regionals made have left me a little jaded. I will say again though Skywest is going to be just fine. My apologies. I made a poor attempt at conveying my original point. It was not that Skywest was the next to go BK. My initial response was to a Skywest pilot whom called the Pinnacle pilots "spineless weenies" because they approved the concessionary TA. To do so, when that individual has not been in the same situation, is out of line. Until that individual has walked in the Pinnacle pilot's shoes, he/she is nothing more then troll.(As you would call them) Same goes for the those that criticize mainline pilots for "selling scope" in BK. There are now some Pinnacle pilots who realize the reality that BK brings. To "burn it down" or "max pay until the last day" isn't such a easy choice when you have a family to consider. Now, you can say Skywest is going to be just fine. And perhaps they will be. But you can not ensure that they will not have to comply with the current CPA which requires a rate reset in 2015, & requires Skywest to be the 2nd lowest cost DCI operator. Will that result in the need for lower labor costs? Hard to say, but the rate reset is undeniable. And if profit margins are slimming, the lower rates required due to Pinnacle's new contract could certainly place pressure on Skywest pilot's pay. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331812)
Well gee whiz Einstien, ever thought that our management might tell us that since we're in Section 6, we now need to match your lowball rate? Or that maybe Delta will just transfer our airplanes and flying to you when we refuse? Ya Think? Thanks again for the cornhole guys. It won't be forgotten.
If you can't see that you and Pinnacle are screwed either way the vote went, you need your head examined. |
Just curious. Your CEO gave himself a 60% pay raise right before filing for bankruptcy right? That's the same CEO now? Is he going to be forced out by Delta (with a golden parachute of course) and has he already given his pay raise back? I'm just wondering because awful management was 100% of the reason they're asking you for pay cuts. Pilots are always sharing in failure but never reaping the rewards of profitability.
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331812)
Well gee whiz Einstien, ever thought that our management might tell us that since we're in Section 6, we now need to match your lowball rate? Or that maybe Delta will just transfer our airplanes and flying to you when we refuse? Ya Think? Thanks again for the cornhole guys. It won't be forgotten.
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Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
(Post 1331825)
Just curious. Your CEO gave himself a 60% pay raise right before filing for bankruptcy right? That's the same CEO now? Is he going to be forced out by Delta (with a golden parachute of course) and has he already given his pay raise back? I'm just wondering because awful management was 100% of the reason they're asking you for pay cuts. Pilots are always sharing in failure but never reaping the rewards of profitability.
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So it's written in the skywest CPA they the must have the 2nd lowest costs of all DCI carries? I would imagine with this new pinnacle concessionary contract and Gojets, it'll be tough unless economy of scale saves them that much money.
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Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
(Post 1331833)
So it's written in the skywest CPA they the must have the 2nd lowest costs of all DCI carries? I would imagine with this new pinnacle concessionary contract and Gojets, it'll be tough unless economy of scale saves them that much money.
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Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 1331824)
gee whiz, ever thought that if we said no and got shut down, your pilot group including you would bend over and pull their pants down because Delta just shut down the last 2 that didn't play their way? Oh but then you could have our planes and you could make sure your kids are good and fat...
If you can't see that you and Pinnacle are screwed either way the vote went, you need your head examined.
Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 1331827)
and how's that's different than us voting no and transfering ours to you exactly? :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
(Post 1331833)
So it's written in the skywest CPA they the must have the 2nd lowest costs of all DCI carries? I would imagine with this new pinnacle concessionary contract and Gojets, it'll be tough unless economy of scale saves them that much money.
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331812)
Well gee whiz Einstien, ever thought that our management might tell us that since we're in Section 6, we now need to match your lowball rate? Or that maybe Delta will just transfer our airplanes and flying to you when we refuse? Ya Think? Thanks again for the cornhole guys. It won't be forgotten.
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331836)
First off I don't plan on being here more than another year or two, so I couldn't care less how many of "your" (Delta's) airplanes we get. Second, 800 OF YOU ARE LOSING YOUR JOBS! HELLO!!! Would YOU want "your" airplanes places at the DCI carrier with the best contract, when you go begging for a new job? This is exactly why you guys are in this Epic Fail. Missing the forest for the trees.
And what makes you think you will only be there another year or so? haven't you been there like 12 already?????? |
So how are some people so confident that delta won't come knocking on ASA/expressjet's door and start asking for concessions/or else?
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"burn it down" and "max pay to the last day" are fun and exciting things to say for a battle cry. This contract will not "make or break your company." They just asked and you said yes. Add a sprinkle of fear to the mix and you get another cost saving measure. I just think you shot yourself in the foot. It didn't have to be this bad. You all could have made some demands instead. oh well. BTW, I have "been in your situation."
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Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
(Post 1331845)
So how are some people so confident that delta won't come knocking on ASA/expressjet's door and start asking for concessions/or else?
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Here is some food for thought for those who claim they would leave the industry rather than work under the PNCL TA.. If that is your mindset, and you would truly leave the industry, then you wouldn't start over at another regional either. In that situation, you wouldn't care about the effect the TA has on the other regionals; you are leaving the industry, after all. You wouldn't volunteer to restart your longevity and seniority at year one RJ FO pay and whipsaw your own earnings.
You would vote yes, take your transition payment, take a voluntary leave to keep your seniority and longevity in as a backup plan (I keep seeing Suze Orman wannabes on these forums talking about how pilots that voted yes on the TA don't have career backup plans), and bail. You can talk about standing on your principles and use all the hyperbole you want in this situation. You can also choose to live in reality, where the Mesaba/Colgan airplanes went to cheaper operations in Penair, Silver, and Republic after the wind down, or you can live in fantasy land where Delta management sends the airplanes to mainline in a wind down of Pinnacle. Now I'll sit back and wait for someone to call me a scab from their hotel room in BHM... |
Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 1331841)
I see....when it benefits you, they are your airplanes and routes, not Deltas......but when I say our, you pull the semantics card.....
And what makes you think you will only be there another year or so? haven't you been there like 12 already?????? |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331838)
Not SkyWest. ASA (SureJet, Expressjet, etc). We are required by our CPA to be the second lowest cost DCI carrier, or Delta may terminate our CPA. That is a fact.
http://inc.skywest.com/invest/Annual...s/10k-2011.pdf The SkyWest Airlines Delta Connection Agreement provides that, beginning with the fifth anniversary of the execution of the agreement (September 8, 2010), Delta has the right to require that certain contractual rates under that agreement shall not exceed the second lowest rates of all carriers within the Delta Connection Program. On November 19, 2010, SkyWest Airlines reached an agreement with Delta related to the second lowest rate provisions to be applied under the SkyWest Airlines Delta Connection Agreement. The ExpressJet Delta Connection Agreement provides that, upon the fifth anniversary of the execution of the agreement (September 8, 2010), Delta obtained the right to require that certain contractual rates under that agreement shall not exceed the second lowest rates of all carriers within the Delta Connection Program. |
Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
(Post 1331845)
So how are some people so confident that delta won't come knocking on ASA/expressjet's door and start asking for concessions/or else?
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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1331862)
No. It's Skywest too.
http://inc.skywest.com/invest/Annual...s/10k-2011.pdf The SkyWest Airlines Delta Connection Agreement provides that, beginning with the fifth anniversary of the execution of the agreement (September 8, 2010), Delta has the right to require that certain contractual rates under that agreement shall not exceed the second lowest rates of all carriers within the Delta Connection Program. On November 19, 2010, SkyWest Airlines reached an agreement with Delta related to the second lowest rate provisions to be applied under the SkyWest Airlines Delta Connection Agreement. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1331865)
I stand corrected. ;)
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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1331870)
Since I'm married I'm never right when at home. This is an odd feeling. :D
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