Originally Posted by fatsopilot (Post 1391001)

We get it, you left Pinnacle and made a good choice. You can move on now. You don't have to keep coming on here and trying to prove to the rest of the world you made the right decision.

People didn't vote for this because of the bridge, they voted for it because they wanted to keep their jobs. Also, if you re-read the last sentence you just posted, Delta can hire 1/3 of the required Pinnacle pilots outside of the bride (and these can be FOs). An FO has a much better chance of being hired from Pinnacle than from any other company, how are FO's at any other companies going to get hired at Delta?

Originally Posted by fatsopilot (Post 1391001)

We get it, you left Pinnacle and made a good choice. You can move on now. You don't have to keep coming on here and trying to prove to the rest of the world you made the right decision.

People didn't vote for this because of the bridge, they voted for it because they wanted to keep their jobs. Also, if you re-read the last sentence you just posted, Delta can hire 1/3 of the required Pinnacle pilots outside of the bridge (and these can be FOs). An FO has a much better chance of being hired from Pinnacle than from any other company, how are FO's at any other companies going to get hired at Delta?

Originally Posted by shimmydamp (Post 1391009)

What has led people to believe that Delta has made a history of hiring pilots straight from the right seat of an RJ anyways? Of course you are likely going to have to be Captain to be hired.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1391029)

Where did I say I'm proving I made the right decision? I'm pointing out lies that were spread to dupe you into voting yes. The only way a 9E FO will get hired at Delta is if he/she upgrades at 9E and goes through the SSP program. It seems from the posters above who went to WIA, Captain Arnie has already made it clear at the WIA conference that anyone at 9E will have to go through the SSP and wait their turn. No cutting any lines. As for the FOs, the response is still "you have a bridge program" which means no FO will be hired outside the SSP agreement.

And 9E would have been around regardless of voting yes. If Delta wanted 9E gone, it would be gone regardless of what concessions were voted in or not. You said you wanted to keep your job, at what point what you say a paycut is too much that you wouldn't do your job? How about 30/hr for a RJ CA and $20/hr for RJ FO? Would that still be worth "saving" and having a job? To be honest, a topped out 37/hr FO job isn't worth saving, not when you can make the same (or greater) at other regionals like SkyWest.

Originally Posted by fatsopilot (Post 1391035)

You never said you wanted to prove that you made the right decision, but your post count on Pinnacle threads makes it pretty clear. You just want the reassurance that you wouldn't have ended up at Delta if you stayed at Pinnacle. What are you going to post on the Pinnacle threads when half of your peers in your old seniority range at Pinnacle are at Delta?

Originally Posted by fatsopilot

People didn't vote for this because of the bridge, they voted for it because they wanted to keep their jobs.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1390687)

And remember the 9E union fed BS that you didn't have to be a CA to qualify for the Delta preferential interview? And that FOs could do it outside of the Streamlined Selection Program (SSP)? Yeah right! Delta just gave a big resounding NO to that one.

Bottom line, no 9E FO will see a Delta interview until they upgrade at 9E, if and when that happens.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1390956)

The problem is not the things that were already known, for example, payrates. When one votes for that, they knew what they were getting. The problem is for them to get the FOs to pass this. A BIG issue/contention was the Delta SSP interview program. All FOs were surprised and probably ticked off that one has to be a current CA or be a former CA in order to qualify for the SSP interview. However, the union sold this to the FOs by saying something along the lines of "well, FOs, you don't have to go through the SSP, nothing stops you from applying to Delta on your own." And people bought it.

This gentlemen Arnie seems to have put a nail in that supposed "fact."

Any current 9E FO should be livid at what they were fed about the SSP interview program to get this whole TA/deal to pass.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1391091)

You are hitting that KoolAid bottle hard. There is no "ending up at Delta" if you stay at Pinnacle. All you get is an interview, that is it. While getting a Delta interview would be nearly impossible in their last hiring cycle of 2010 (because they only hired a small handful with thousands of applications), Delta hiring is going to pick up a lot in 2014, 2015 and beyond. The problem with Pinnacle's deal is two fold. One, you only get an interview and there is no guarantee of a job or a Delta number. Two, there is a set quota per year of how many Pinnacle guys can get hired. This SSP is absolutely nothing to write home about. What am I going to post when peers in my seniority range interview at Delta? You'll have to ask me that in 2025 because that is realistically when they'll get their chance. But I can assure you with a 99.9% confidence that these FOs would be better off leaving, going to Spirit/Virgin/JetBlue, and then applying to Delta. They are far more likely to be called once they qualify their resumes beyond just the glut of RJ pilots applying to Delta.


On the contrary, LCC FOs have a better chance than RJ FOs. Don't take it from me, go to a job fair. Once Delta does start hiring, there is a limit on Pinnacle guys they can take. Other airlines have no limit. For example, there is no limit on how many Spirit pilots Delta can hire.


Right here:



And I have all the access I could want for the bridge agreement and TA details.



Ease the decision to leave Pinnacle? Are you serious? The only positive thing would have been a guaranteed Delta number for every Pinnacle pilot. That would have been something write home about. Knowing that today or tomorrow you can't go to Delta, but in 2020, you have a guaranteed class date and a number. That would be a good deal.

But all you got is a lousy "guaranteed interview" which every major airline uses at some point to get their regional counterpart to agree to some sort of concessions. It's a carrot at the end of a stick, dangling in front of you. I have no regrets leaving. Being permanent RJ FO at 37/hr even with only a guaranteed Delta interview in 2023? No way. What surprises me is your defending tone, as if you're proud to be at 37/hr with nothing to show for it but a potential guaranteed interview at Delta in 2023? Have some self respect.

Originally Posted by fatsopilot (Post 1391192)

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, at no point did I say I voted for the concessions. I stated why other people voted for it, it has already been beaten to death so I'll just leave it at that. If you can't comprehend English at a 3rd grade level I'm not going to explain it to you. Also you seem to be mixing up threads, we were talking about regional FOs getting hired at Delta, not FOs from a tier 2 major.

Originally Posted by Saabs (Post 1391115)

Definitely agree with shyguy. An airbus FO has a better chance than an rj FO. Enough said.

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1391220)

Unless you are shyguy. He has pretty much blackballed himself.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1391222)

Doubtful, although I'd say he's def nuked his chances at UPS, haha.

Few people are able to bring out butthurt as efficiently as him without actually trolling! It's really funny to watch.

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1391225)

Yeah, but the problem Shyguy has is that we all know who he is. He has been outted and still remains a major tool. Doubt he will ever show up on the DAL seniority list.

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1391231)

80, I take it you are friends with shy outside of APC.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1391233)

Negatory... never met the guy. I of course have plenty of friends that have flown with him. Nobody seems to mind him except when he starts typing on message boards.

With DL1067, it's amusing that someone with a toolish reputation gets so mad at someone else for having a toolish reputation. That irony is hard to get by!

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1391222)

Doubtful, although I'd say he's def nuked his chances at UPS, haha.

Few people are able to bring out butthurt as efficiently as him without actually trolling! It's really funny to watch.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1391031)

There have been some in the past, with the right contacts or qualifications (masters/PHD, beyond a bachelor for example). I could see Delta hiring a 4000-6000+ hr RJ FO who didn't upgrade simply because he never had the opportunity to do so.

Originally Posted by swamp (Post 1391313)

Or the butthurt shy gets when you mention Virgin America and financial reports in the same sentence. You're right, it is funny.

Originally Posted by shimmydamp (Post 1391418)

So, you are constructing a scenario based on hearsay that you could see playing out, but have no real evidence to prove your point with. First it was all the 9E Captains that didn't have their bachelors degree who were the problem. and now it's compounded by all the 9E FOs with their Master/PHD who won't have a fair shot.:rolleyes:

You are talking about maybe 1/100 pilots who have have connections solid enough at Delta to be hired straight from the right seat of an RJ. Until Delta hires no one will know the real effect of the SSP. Logically you would have upgrade opportunities come about from it and FOs turn into CAs.

Maybe I can help you redirect your negativity to something that is actually potentially a problem. That would be if CAs with competitive qualifications are held back from interviewing while CAs from other regionals are hired. Still, there will 12 seats in a class minimum, which is more than there would have been from 9e otherwise.

Thanks for your continued concern for those of us at 9e. Like an angel on our bedpost.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1391552)

My only point was that the 9E FOs got duped into being told that they could apply to Delta outside the SSP on their own. This was the union response when a few angry FOs questioned the CA-only qualification standard. It's wrong to give the wrong information for the greater agenda of getting the concessionary deal passed. As a FO, who knows when the upgrade will happen. By that time, the SSP may get current CAs through, and tons more street hires. How is it worth anything for any FO at this point.

Originally Posted by shimmydamp (Post 1391578)

It's not wrong information if it is true. They are able to to apply and be selected up to 1/3 of the SSP, are they not? You are going off of a story you have heard from the Women in Aviation conference and have applied it to the entire 9e pilot group and SSP going forward. The union response you quote is going off of the written agreement, aka actual information. Seeing as when Delta hires, they will be filling classes with at least 12 9e pilots a month, that's more than would have happened otherwise, and creates movement.

You have a way of distorting and purporting "facts" just to paint 9e in a negative light. You've used 850 pilots as the end number multiple times, even though that would go against the staffing numbers used right now, you've stated that all 9e has is a guaranteed interview which is worthless while there are actually guaranteed seats, and you've routinely tried to make a mountain out of this molehill, claiming 9e FOs are being held back by the SSP.

Things in bankruptcy have been bad enough with 3 CEOs, payroll issues, and wage cuts, you think you could just use real facts to make your case.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1391612)

Wouldn't you agree the WIA conference is proof? If indeed what the union said was true that any pilot can apply outside SSP and get an interviewthat way towards the quota, wouldn't that leave the Delta hiring team willing to meet 9E pilots go show up at a job fair? Instead what happened is they've been told you have a bridge agreement, no cuttin lines basically. If you want further proof, ask Compass guys about getting hired outside their flow, and now, interview program. You'll be surprised at the answer, but basically, it's get in line an wait your turn. You are correct that 9E got some guaranteed seats, though not a guaranteed job. However, evidence shows that no one will get hired outside the bridge agreement. Time will tell, but the recent conference update and past history does not bode well for acceptance outside the bridge agreement to cut the line.

As for the end state, 850 was a guess. Maybe 950. Or a 1000. Still not enough for over 50% of the group. The SSP will work for the top guys, those who choose to leave. Remember, with the end state of 850-1000 or so pilots, don't forget te lifer logjam. This means that those too old to go to Delta will rather retire at 9E. That's another CA seat that won't be vacated. Theoretically you could come to a stage where all 450-550 end state CAs decide to stay until retirement, further delaying upgrade. Not to mention, the Delta interview bad interview/reject. They too will be staying left seat. Between the bad interview guys and the guys who decide Delta not worth it, you will have a logjam. Without a chance to upgrade, FOs will not qualify for the SSP.

Originally Posted by Slats (Post 1391747)

Until I see 12 9E people a month occupying new hire seats for several months, I won't believe it...

If you believe it, I'm assuming you're still looking for Sasquatch.

Originally Posted by ross9238 (Post 1391821)

Is that 12 from 9E getting to interview or are they required to have 12 for each class?

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1391830)

Each class will have 9 XJ flows. I think there are still around 60 XJers who have flow tickets.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1391887)

You will know this, and I'm only curious, how many XJ flowthroughs were eligible to flow up to Delta in the 2010 cycle, and how many actually elected to go in that cycle?

Originally Posted by Slats (Post 1391747)

Until I see 12 9E people a month occupying new hire seats for several months, I won't believe it...

If you believe it, I'm assuming you're still looking for Sasquatch.

Originally Posted by legend (Post 1391905)

You must be the almighty wise one with infinite knowledge and experience.

IF SLATS DOESNT BELIEVE IT NOBODY WILL!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1391892)

Shy, when the 1st flows went to NWA in 2008 I think the most junior flow was around #70. There were only 4-6 in the top 100 who flowed as most were XJ Lifers. Once it hit triple digit seniority #'s with the 2010 flow groups, very few XJers turned it down. In the 2010 flow cycle, very few turned it down. With the remaining 60 who have flow tickets, I don't think you will have more than a few who turn it down. Hopefully we will find out soon.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 1392102)

I don't think anyone will turn it down. The Mesaba of now is not the Mesaba of 2010.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 1392102)

The Mesaba of now is not the Mesaba of 2010.

Originally Posted by Rama04 (Post 1392142)

You mean closed? Last I heard, that certificate has been turned back in.

Originally Posted by Slats (Post 1391747)

If you believe it, I'm assuming you're still looking for Sasquatch.

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1391892)

Shy, when the 1st flows went to NWA in 2008 I think the most junior flow was around #70. There were only 4-6 in the top 100 who flowed as most were XJ Lifers. Once it hit triple digit seniority #'s with the 2010 flow groups, very few XJers turned it down. In the 2010 flow cycle, very few turned it down. With the remaining 60 who have flow tickets, I don't think you will have more than a few who turn it down. Hopefully we will find out soon.