The Insanity of Concessions in 2014
02-14-2014, 09:29 AM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 939
Originally Posted by JungleBus
I think we have to ask ourselves our reasons for posting at APC. Is it mere time-wasting entertainment, a slightly more interactive alternative to devouring mind-numbing spittle on TV or perusing People's gripping account of the Kardashians' most recent meltdown? Or is it potentially a powerful tool for achieving unity across airline lines, a communication medium our airline pilot predecessors never dreamt of in their wildest dreams? Your answer will influence how you post.
02-14-2014, 10:05 AM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: CR7
Posts: 267
By MICHAEL SCHNEIDER
February 13, 2014
CHICAGO— The regional (or Fee for Departure) segment of the airline industry is comprised of over 25 airlines, operating over 50% of all departures in the USA, and flying into the world’s most complex airspace, and largest (and sometimes smallest) airports, in some of the most challenging weather conditions on the globe.
This means that, at any given time, you are more likely to be flying on a regional airline than the mainline airline through which you’ve purchased your ticket. In fact, it was not until just recently that the airlines were required to tell you the name of the regional airline on which you are actually flying. Most people think that if they buy their ticket through United.com, for example, they will be flying on a United airplane, with United pilots, and United service. Many times, however, this is simply not the case.
You may recall the fatal crash in Buffalo, NY in February of 2009. Yesterday was the 5 year anniversary of this crash. It was Continental Connection flight 3407, operated by Colgan Air. Many friends and family members of those who died in that crash had never heard of Colgan. They were wondering why their loved ones were flying on Colgan when they thought they were flying on Continental. Much attention was focused on fatigue, and flying proficiency (rightly so), but there wasn’t much talk about pilot compensation. At the time of the crash, the First Officer earned about $20k/year. For her flight from Newark to Buffalo, she would have been paid about $30-$40. Total. For the entire flight.
Little has changed up to now unfortunately. Regional airplanes are painted in mainline colors, your flight is coded as a mainline flight, ticket agents, gate agents, and ground workers might all be employees of the mainline. But once you cross the threshold and board that regional jet, or turboprop, you can often hear passengers’ exclamations of how much smaller the airplane is than they’d expected. The trend now, however, is to replace these smaller regional jets with larger, more sophisticated aircraft, carrying many more passengers. Instead of receiving raises, pilots are offered only concessions. Take it or leave it. Leave it, and we’ll place the aircraft at a cheaper airline and shut you down. This is the reality of regional airlines and its dangerous downward spiraling of pilot compensation at a time of record profits, as well as a scarcity of qualified pilots. We believe this is a recipe for disaster waiting to happen.
We are: highly technically skilled, highly trained, highly competent, professional airline pilots operating some of the most complex equipment in and out of the busiest airports and airspace in the world, during all types of meteorological conditions.
But compared to our mainline peers, we are grossly undercompensated.
And chances are, we will be piloting your next flight.
The starting salary at a regional airline for First Officers (Co-Pilots) at one of the largest regional airlines is $23,256/yr. Broken down hourly, that’s a mere $12/hr, based on a 40-hour workweek.
You might hear the media and airline managements proclaim that we make a great hourly wage, but that’s entirely misleading. While away from home more often than at most full-time careers, airline pilots don’t get paid anywhere near 40 hours of pay a week.
Preflighting, flight planning, weather data gathering and interpreting, boarding, deplaning, configuring the cockpit before departure, maintenance delays, weather delays, inbound aircraft arrival delays, “sit” time between flights, and any other time that the door is not closed with the parking brake released is ALL UNPAID.
Imagine only being paid at your job for performing specific tasks, while some of the most important parts of your work go unpaid. That is how airline pilot pay structure is set up.
Let’s do some quick math. Consider this: You’re flying from Chicago to (insert any smaller city within about a 1-2 hour range) let’s say Cleveland, Ohio. You purchased your ticket on AA.com and paid $150 for your one-way flight. You arrive at the airport and head to the American Airlines terminal. You get to your gate, and see AA flight 3575 to CLE will be an hour-long full flight. You board the airplane, and find your seat on the 50-seat Embraer painted in American Eagle colors. You hit some turbulence en route as the pilots navigate around some winter storms. You are confident in your pilots’ ability to get you safely to your destination. As a professional airline pilot, your first officer is more than capable of completing the flight safely. But for his troubles, for this example flight, he will earn exactly $25.84, about $0.50 - yes that is fifty cents - per ticket. From your $150 ticket, a mere half a dollar will have gone to pay your First Officer. Chances are, you tipped your shuttle van driver more than your pilot made from your ticket.
In most industries, one can take their skill-set with them to another company or employer. Skills and experience do not lose value over time. If anything, their value increases.
But not at the airlines. A mainline Captain with 30 years of experience and tens of thousands of flight hours, who leaves for another airline, will make the exact same pay as a new-hire First Officer with the minimum qualifications. If Sully Sullenberger decided to come out of retirement tomorrow and fly for American Airlines, he would earn roughly $39,000 his first year, regardless of his very famous experience.
BUT WHY DO THEY PAY SO LITTLE?
The regional airline industry has experienced tremendous growth, as mainline airlines have essentially outsourced shorter flights to smaller cities to these traditionally entry-level regionals. While this may have worked early on, 9/11 changed everything. Whereas before pilots expected to spend only a few years at the regional level, able to move on quickly to mainline airlines, the post-9/11 industry experienced a period of extreme pilot career stagnation, resulting in an extended era of low wages, and inability to move on to the mainlines.
In short, the regional model is broken. The regionals are unsustainable, and everyone in the industry knows it. But instead of effectively managing their industry by offering competitive wages to attract new-hire pilots to staff the regionals, airline managements have decided to lower labor costs to the point of near-poverty level wages. This has only exacerbated the glooming pilot shortage.
To answer the question though, they pay so little because they can. As was previously mentioned, pilots cannot simply switch airlines if a competitor offers a better future. On the regional level, there are over 25 regional airlines providing passenger feed for the mainlines.
Mainline executives demand regional pilots agree to concessions, or the feed they provide will be awarded to the next lowest bidder, and your airline will be shut down.
This, in combination with the Railway Labor Act’s extreme restrictions on the ability for pilots to strike, has culminated into what we are seeing today: the erosion of the pilot profession, as airline executives realize record profits. We feel that near-poverty level wages has an adverse effect on safety, and that corporate greed will unfortunately be to blame for the next great air disaster.
We want our pilots focused on operating their aircraft, not wondering how they’re going to pay their bills.
February 13, 2014
CHICAGO— The regional (or Fee for Departure) segment of the airline industry is comprised of over 25 airlines, operating over 50% of all departures in the USA, and flying into the world’s most complex airspace, and largest (and sometimes smallest) airports, in some of the most challenging weather conditions on the globe.
This means that, at any given time, you are more likely to be flying on a regional airline than the mainline airline through which you’ve purchased your ticket. In fact, it was not until just recently that the airlines were required to tell you the name of the regional airline on which you are actually flying. Most people think that if they buy their ticket through United.com, for example, they will be flying on a United airplane, with United pilots, and United service. Many times, however, this is simply not the case.
You may recall the fatal crash in Buffalo, NY in February of 2009. Yesterday was the 5 year anniversary of this crash. It was Continental Connection flight 3407, operated by Colgan Air. Many friends and family members of those who died in that crash had never heard of Colgan. They were wondering why their loved ones were flying on Colgan when they thought they were flying on Continental. Much attention was focused on fatigue, and flying proficiency (rightly so), but there wasn’t much talk about pilot compensation. At the time of the crash, the First Officer earned about $20k/year. For her flight from Newark to Buffalo, she would have been paid about $30-$40. Total. For the entire flight.
Little has changed up to now unfortunately. Regional airplanes are painted in mainline colors, your flight is coded as a mainline flight, ticket agents, gate agents, and ground workers might all be employees of the mainline. But once you cross the threshold and board that regional jet, or turboprop, you can often hear passengers’ exclamations of how much smaller the airplane is than they’d expected. The trend now, however, is to replace these smaller regional jets with larger, more sophisticated aircraft, carrying many more passengers. Instead of receiving raises, pilots are offered only concessions. Take it or leave it. Leave it, and we’ll place the aircraft at a cheaper airline and shut you down. This is the reality of regional airlines and its dangerous downward spiraling of pilot compensation at a time of record profits, as well as a scarcity of qualified pilots. We believe this is a recipe for disaster waiting to happen.
We are: highly technically skilled, highly trained, highly competent, professional airline pilots operating some of the most complex equipment in and out of the busiest airports and airspace in the world, during all types of meteorological conditions.
But compared to our mainline peers, we are grossly undercompensated.
And chances are, we will be piloting your next flight.
The starting salary at a regional airline for First Officers (Co-Pilots) at one of the largest regional airlines is $23,256/yr. Broken down hourly, that’s a mere $12/hr, based on a 40-hour workweek.
You might hear the media and airline managements proclaim that we make a great hourly wage, but that’s entirely misleading. While away from home more often than at most full-time careers, airline pilots don’t get paid anywhere near 40 hours of pay a week.
Preflighting, flight planning, weather data gathering and interpreting, boarding, deplaning, configuring the cockpit before departure, maintenance delays, weather delays, inbound aircraft arrival delays, “sit” time between flights, and any other time that the door is not closed with the parking brake released is ALL UNPAID.
Imagine only being paid at your job for performing specific tasks, while some of the most important parts of your work go unpaid. That is how airline pilot pay structure is set up.
Let’s do some quick math. Consider this: You’re flying from Chicago to (insert any smaller city within about a 1-2 hour range) let’s say Cleveland, Ohio. You purchased your ticket on AA.com and paid $150 for your one-way flight. You arrive at the airport and head to the American Airlines terminal. You get to your gate, and see AA flight 3575 to CLE will be an hour-long full flight. You board the airplane, and find your seat on the 50-seat Embraer painted in American Eagle colors. You hit some turbulence en route as the pilots navigate around some winter storms. You are confident in your pilots’ ability to get you safely to your destination. As a professional airline pilot, your first officer is more than capable of completing the flight safely. But for his troubles, for this example flight, he will earn exactly $25.84, about $0.50 - yes that is fifty cents - per ticket. From your $150 ticket, a mere half a dollar will have gone to pay your First Officer. Chances are, you tipped your shuttle van driver more than your pilot made from your ticket.
In most industries, one can take their skill-set with them to another company or employer. Skills and experience do not lose value over time. If anything, their value increases.
But not at the airlines. A mainline Captain with 30 years of experience and tens of thousands of flight hours, who leaves for another airline, will make the exact same pay as a new-hire First Officer with the minimum qualifications. If Sully Sullenberger decided to come out of retirement tomorrow and fly for American Airlines, he would earn roughly $39,000 his first year, regardless of his very famous experience.
BUT WHY DO THEY PAY SO LITTLE?
The regional airline industry has experienced tremendous growth, as mainline airlines have essentially outsourced shorter flights to smaller cities to these traditionally entry-level regionals. While this may have worked early on, 9/11 changed everything. Whereas before pilots expected to spend only a few years at the regional level, able to move on quickly to mainline airlines, the post-9/11 industry experienced a period of extreme pilot career stagnation, resulting in an extended era of low wages, and inability to move on to the mainlines.
In short, the regional model is broken. The regionals are unsustainable, and everyone in the industry knows it. But instead of effectively managing their industry by offering competitive wages to attract new-hire pilots to staff the regionals, airline managements have decided to lower labor costs to the point of near-poverty level wages. This has only exacerbated the glooming pilot shortage.
To answer the question though, they pay so little because they can. As was previously mentioned, pilots cannot simply switch airlines if a competitor offers a better future. On the regional level, there are over 25 regional airlines providing passenger feed for the mainlines.
Mainline executives demand regional pilots agree to concessions, or the feed they provide will be awarded to the next lowest bidder, and your airline will be shut down.
This, in combination with the Railway Labor Act’s extreme restrictions on the ability for pilots to strike, has culminated into what we are seeing today: the erosion of the pilot profession, as airline executives realize record profits. We feel that near-poverty level wages has an adverse effect on safety, and that corporate greed will unfortunately be to blame for the next great air disaster.
We want our pilots focused on operating their aircraft, not wondering how they’re going to pay their bills.
02-14-2014, 12:26 PM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
I think it is ironic that ALPA has publicly stated there is no pilot shortage: It seems to me that issuing this statement does not help pay and working conditions.
....later in there statement they go on to say that there are pilots overseas waiting for a chance to come back to the US. Why are they overseas? Why don't those overseas countries/companies employ their own pilots? Reason: They don't have enough pilots of their own...this is a GLOBAL pilot shortage, and ALPA is contradicting itself in their own statement.
At my airline, we have noticed more and more delays from lack of crews when we are trying to deadhead on regional (and sometimes major) airlines.
....later in there statement they go on to say that there are pilots overseas waiting for a chance to come back to the US. Why are they overseas? Why don't those overseas countries/companies employ their own pilots? Reason: They don't have enough pilots of their own...this is a GLOBAL pilot shortage, and ALPA is contradicting itself in their own statement.
At my airline, we have noticed more and more delays from lack of crews when we are trying to deadhead on regional (and sometimes major) airlines.
02-14-2014, 12:45 PM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 366
Originally Posted by atpcliff
I think it is ironic that ALPA has publicly stated there is no pilot shortage: It seems to me that issuing this statement does not help pay and working conditions.
....later in there statement they go on to say that there are pilots overseas waiting for a chance to come back to the US. Why are they overseas? Why don't those overseas countries/companies employ their own pilots? Reason: They don't have enough pilots of their own...this is a GLOBAL pilot shortage, and ALPA is contradicting itself in their own statement.
At my airline, we have noticed more and more delays from lack of crews when we are trying to deadhead on regional (and sometimes major) airlines.
....later in there statement they go on to say that there are pilots overseas waiting for a chance to come back to the US. Why are they overseas? Why don't those overseas countries/companies employ their own pilots? Reason: They don't have enough pilots of their own...this is a GLOBAL pilot shortage, and ALPA is contradicting itself in their own statement.
At my airline, we have noticed more and more delays from lack of crews when we are trying to deadhead on regional (and sometimes major) airlines.
02-14-2014, 03:53 PM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Originally Posted by atpcliff
I think it is ironic that ALPA has publicly stated there is no pilot shortage: It seems to me that issuing this statement does not help pay and working conditions.
....later in there statement they go on to say that there are pilots overseas waiting for a chance to come back to the US. Why are they overseas? Why don't those overseas countries/companies employ their own pilots? Reason: They don't have enough pilots of their own...this is a GLOBAL pilot shortage, and ALPA is contradicting itself in their own statement.
At my airline, we have noticed more and more delays from lack of crews when we are trying to deadhead on regional (and sometimes major) airlines.
....later in there statement they go on to say that there are pilots overseas waiting for a chance to come back to the US. Why are they overseas? Why don't those overseas countries/companies employ their own pilots? Reason: They don't have enough pilots of their own...this is a GLOBAL pilot shortage, and ALPA is contradicting itself in their own statement.
At my airline, we have noticed more and more delays from lack of crews when we are trying to deadhead on regional (and sometimes major) airlines.
02-16-2014, 08:53 AM
#198
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
What you can guarantee is that the lobbyist are hard at work to repeal legislation that's making it harder to find qualified pilots.
For the airlines sake, it's considerably easier to tempt/attract a 250 hour guy towards a job than a 1500 hour guy. Having the 1500 hour rule in a scenario where "everyone" is hiring really helps even the playing field as well...no longer will company A require 1000 hours while company B requires 500, and company C requires 250...everyone is requiring 1500 means those companies who don't offer an appropriate compensation package (pay/benefits/QOL) will be losing out to the companies that do provide the benefits that people value.
Keeping the age 65 rule in place and not getting it extended to 70 and keeping the minimums at 1500 hours is mandatory if you want to improve the quality of life for regional pilots...and i don't think many of the arguments that there are plenty of pilots out there is really inaccurate. My company employees pilots, navigators, and air traffic controllers in mass, many of those are 1500+ hour pilots who left the regionals and majors because of job advancement and career worries....for the right $$ the majority of those pilots would go back to work at the airlines again. The key though is that the current airline model won't work to support the wage increases...some very big changes are necessary, and I see the regional system changing dramatically in the future.
For the airlines sake, it's considerably easier to tempt/attract a 250 hour guy towards a job than a 1500 hour guy. Having the 1500 hour rule in a scenario where "everyone" is hiring really helps even the playing field as well...no longer will company A require 1000 hours while company B requires 500, and company C requires 250...everyone is requiring 1500 means those companies who don't offer an appropriate compensation package (pay/benefits/QOL) will be losing out to the companies that do provide the benefits that people value.
Keeping the age 65 rule in place and not getting it extended to 70 and keeping the minimums at 1500 hours is mandatory if you want to improve the quality of life for regional pilots...and i don't think many of the arguments that there are plenty of pilots out there is really inaccurate. My company employees pilots, navigators, and air traffic controllers in mass, many of those are 1500+ hour pilots who left the regionals and majors because of job advancement and career worries....for the right $$ the majority of those pilots would go back to work at the airlines again. The key though is that the current airline model won't work to support the wage increases...some very big changes are necessary, and I see the regional system changing dramatically in the future.
02-19-2014, 01:19 PM
#199
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 319/320/321...whatever it takes.
Posts: 492
Originally Posted by JungleBus
Hmm, a bit disappointed to see the thread sink into another major-regional pilot snipefest. The assumptions we make about each other are one of the things management has used to keep us divided and working against each other so long.
Major pilots-- Nearly all of you are experienced, educated, well trained, conscientious pilots. We understand that you're proud of where you are & what you've achieved, with good reason. What you need to understand is that most regional pilots are also similarly well-educated, hard-working and conscientious. You'd be surprised at the very high level of experience in many regional cockpits. Most of us are still at the regionals not due to being unqualified for a major, but because timing, industry conditions, or family priorities have made the jump hard or impossible thus far in our careers. Scope relaxation certainly didn't help. Then there are the regional pilots who already made it to major or national airlines, only to see their carriers and jobs wither away, forcing them to start over. Now, yes, it's true, there are some pilots among us who wouldn't be able to hack it at the majors but are tolerated by regional management. Calling attention to them as proof of the regionals' deficiencies is pretty counter-productive on your part, though. It makes regional pilots defensive; we think you're talking about us, personally. Many of us have been so beaten down by our management over the years, not to mention looked down upon by some mainline pilots, all while seeing our careers stalled, that we've developed a bit of an inferiority complex. Now, if you want regional pilots to start demanding the wages they deserve and stop taking concessions, you probably shouldn't be making them feel inferior. Point out the abuses and ineptitude and cheapness and safety lapses of regional management, the inherent problems of the system, etc, but don't go painting the pilots with the broad brush of inferiority. You'll turn potential allies into defensive enemies. The fight for change starts with regional pilots recognizing our true worth.
Regional pilots-- We need to stop being quite so defensive. Yeah, most of us have had mainline pilots look down their noses at us. But not every mainline pilot who criticizes the regional airlines and the outsourcing system thinks you're an underqualified, undertrained wreck waiting to happen. Most would love to have you and your flying on the mainline seniority list. If you listen to most of their critiques of the regional airlines, they're the exact same things we complain about amongst ourselves. If you work for a regional, pride in your airline is thoroughly misplaced. Take pride in the work you do, not who you work for, because frankly most of our bosses are the second-string retreads of the airline world having a go at amateur hour. Lastly, stop claiming that all regional pilots are the exact equivalent of mainline pilots. Many are, but not all. We've all flown with guys that would never, ever make it through a major airline interview, to say nothing of their training program. Denying their existence is making management's argument for them: that the regionals are a perfectly interchangeable, equally safe replacement for mainline. It's not true, and not helpful to our cause. Every mainline pilot that recognizes the repugnance of today's outsourcing system is another "no" voter when the next scope relaxation vote comes up. They're our natural allies, so treat them like it.
Back on topic, in the two weeks since I wrote this essay, we've had a few new developments:
1. Great Lakes closed up shop in MSP for lack of pilots.
2. United scaled back CLE operation & 50-seat RJs for staffing at partner airlines.
3. Republic is prematurely drawing down their 50-seat contracts in order to staff the 76-seat flying they have.
I think these things make it pretty clear that nobody can staff Eagle's flying in addition to their own. Management's threats are empty. The pilots have the leverage here and there is absolutely no reason to vote in permanent concessions that won't affect the eventual outcome due to artificially stirred-up fears.
Major pilots-- Nearly all of you are experienced, educated, well trained, conscientious pilots. We understand that you're proud of where you are & what you've achieved, with good reason. What you need to understand is that most regional pilots are also similarly well-educated, hard-working and conscientious. You'd be surprised at the very high level of experience in many regional cockpits. Most of us are still at the regionals not due to being unqualified for a major, but because timing, industry conditions, or family priorities have made the jump hard or impossible thus far in our careers. Scope relaxation certainly didn't help. Then there are the regional pilots who already made it to major or national airlines, only to see their carriers and jobs wither away, forcing them to start over. Now, yes, it's true, there are some pilots among us who wouldn't be able to hack it at the majors but are tolerated by regional management. Calling attention to them as proof of the regionals' deficiencies is pretty counter-productive on your part, though. It makes regional pilots defensive; we think you're talking about us, personally. Many of us have been so beaten down by our management over the years, not to mention looked down upon by some mainline pilots, all while seeing our careers stalled, that we've developed a bit of an inferiority complex. Now, if you want regional pilots to start demanding the wages they deserve and stop taking concessions, you probably shouldn't be making them feel inferior. Point out the abuses and ineptitude and cheapness and safety lapses of regional management, the inherent problems of the system, etc, but don't go painting the pilots with the broad brush of inferiority. You'll turn potential allies into defensive enemies. The fight for change starts with regional pilots recognizing our true worth.
Regional pilots-- We need to stop being quite so defensive. Yeah, most of us have had mainline pilots look down their noses at us. But not every mainline pilot who criticizes the regional airlines and the outsourcing system thinks you're an underqualified, undertrained wreck waiting to happen. Most would love to have you and your flying on the mainline seniority list. If you listen to most of their critiques of the regional airlines, they're the exact same things we complain about amongst ourselves. If you work for a regional, pride in your airline is thoroughly misplaced. Take pride in the work you do, not who you work for, because frankly most of our bosses are the second-string retreads of the airline world having a go at amateur hour. Lastly, stop claiming that all regional pilots are the exact equivalent of mainline pilots. Many are, but not all. We've all flown with guys that would never, ever make it through a major airline interview, to say nothing of their training program. Denying their existence is making management's argument for them: that the regionals are a perfectly interchangeable, equally safe replacement for mainline. It's not true, and not helpful to our cause. Every mainline pilot that recognizes the repugnance of today's outsourcing system is another "no" voter when the next scope relaxation vote comes up. They're our natural allies, so treat them like it.
Back on topic, in the two weeks since I wrote this essay, we've had a few new developments:
1. Great Lakes closed up shop in MSP for lack of pilots.
2. United scaled back CLE operation & 50-seat RJs for staffing at partner airlines.
3. Republic is prematurely drawing down their 50-seat contracts in order to staff the 76-seat flying they have.
I think these things make it pretty clear that nobody can staff Eagle's flying in addition to their own. Management's threats are empty. The pilots have the leverage here and there is absolutely no reason to vote in permanent concessions that won't affect the eventual outcome due to artificially stirred-up fears.
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"
- Eleanor Roosevelt
Now is the time to come together and demand what you are worth. If everyone says no, their threat won't work.
02-21-2014, 10:28 AM
#200
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: Extra 300
Posts: 61
Another interesting article, this one more toward the reality of the pilot shortage. Hoping this industry will improve in the coming months.
How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Triangle Business Journal
How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Triangle Business Journal
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