If it makes you happy so be it.

So what does this mean? You will be courteous to their faces but then talk about them in the crew room with your buddies?

That's not very..........professional.

I believe Eagle currently has a minimum salary increase of 1.5% a year and that disappears with this agreement. Technically that is a loss for everyone. In 3 years time that is at least a 4.5% loss is compensation.

That's correct. Actually it can go up or down depending the industry. Before BK it was 1.5% regardless. Either way in Bk we decided to split the compensation between FOs and Ca. So if other companies FOs pay goes up, our FOs basically match them and CA stay the same.

The already own us around 3% of pay raises by the Bk TA and whatever difference is made by 2015. So if RAH pay goes up in their contract, basically we will get a % of raise to match them. Because the new industry standard will go up.

Also we should be now at $2.05 of per diem by our previous contract. In bk we agreed to go down to 1.85 for 2 years with $0.05 increases starting in 2015.

In this TA they will be takin $0.05 and stay at 1.80 for 10 years!!! (Thanks again PSA). By 2025 we should be at $2.35 an hour!!! That's $1,800 difference of what we do today per year (based in 300hrs TAFB per month).

These are serious concessions but our dumb pilots, like Btzzz and others yes voters that think they will be out of here in 2 years don't think about it. When I got hired 4 years ago, I said to myself "the industry is moving quickly I might be out of here in 3 years". I'm still around 400 numbers from upgrading. I won't be out of here for at least 4 more years if I'm lucky.

This TA is not about today, is about the future! Our future and everyone else future!!!!

Open your eyes fellow pilots!!! Eagle is not closing, there are not enough pilots out there to cover our flying. If you jump the ship to other regional, then you're doing management a favor. Go back to 1st year pay.

So, get out there guys and vote. Management will do whatever they want regardless of our vote!

well said pilotj3

It seems the fleet plan for you guys is much larger than what they're telling you guys. I was told the real objective is close to 280 total planes.

Didn't they do this back in the 90's? Rip the place down, only to build it back up larger than before.

I'd vote no if I were in your shoes.

Glad to see someone gets it.

280 planes? I am very skeptical we or any other regional could staff that. Very interesting though.

Staffing under the current contract would be impossible but staffing with a real improvement to flow and pay would make it quite easy. It wouldn't appear that real improvement to flow or pay is an option, so therefore staffing would be a huge problem until they come to their senses about what the market would dictate for improved staffing levels.

The turboprop section of the mou is interesting.

Right now we are losing 80 per month, and everyone I know seems to be getting offers at majors and Llcs. Capts and fos. I don't think their plan will work anytime soon here.

That would fit with Pedro's "vision" and his touting that 170 would only be a MINIMUM fleet guarantee and how he wants to grow Eagle errr Envoy in the future... buuut threatening to shrink us if we vote down the TA... makes sense? Those planes gotta go somewhere... good luck Mesa!

What the industry better realize is that if a regional like Eagle gets shut down, a very large number of pilots will not be able to return to the industry and start over from scratch, thereby turning a pilot pay problem into a real pilot shortage problem.

management knows that, they are banking on FEAR to overcome the pay issue and for a vote in favor of management proposal in the TA of concessions for a lot of maybes.

matter a fact the fleet commitment and the flow commitment, in order to honor one (with a pilot shortage) they would have to violate the other commitment. So management already knows which they are going to violate, the one that costs the least, and that would be the flow will be stalled to a crippling crawl to maintain the staffing for the 170 aircraft.

I think this would work: Keep the work rules the same. Double everyone's pay. Give every Envoy pilot an AA employee number.

Maybe yes maybe no. Our current eight year contract doesn't have any provisions against such a problem.

If we are able to secure language such as "it will reduce block hours to honor the flow" we can always take it to arbitration in case that they decide to violate the provisions on our TA. And because the language is very explicit then the arbitaror would side with the union in very short time.

As a matter of fact if they can't staff their airplanes due to lack of crews and the flow isn't attracting new hires then the only place you can correct is pay and benefits. The company thinks the flow will work, we don't think it would be such a good tool for hiring but either way we will have the leverage we need to snapback and improve anything we are losing with the TA.

5c per diem and 5% on insurance contributions in three years.


Most FOs are grandfathered and most captains will continue to go to the top of the scale and by then the will flow. Having the increase to 100% of the first 30 in an AA class was a major improvement.

Flow through sounds like a great idea, but what most fail to realize is there isn't anyone to attract. The best you can hope for is to maybe attract existing airline pilots from a few of the weaker carriers, likely 1 or 2 will fail this year. After that, there is nobody left to attract. There are no pilots in the training pipeline, nobody to attract, nobody to care.

Arbitration can take awhile. Every time I talk to Eagle pilots they are complaining about a reserve section of the contract currently being violated. They say it's very clear language but it's still being violated and the arbitration has been going on for over a year.

Also the last thing your management will do is give pay and benefit improvements to all pilots at Eagle. They will give bigger and bigger bonuses to new hires in order to fill classes.

Apparently the language concerning reserve turn backs was not as cut and dry as we thought it was. The courts don't just side with the company because they hate pilots, we'll have to wait for the ruling but there was an obviously an argument the company could have made there.

Can you post the language? What is unclear about it? Why would this TA be any different? Even if the contract is as black and white as some of the Eagle yes voters think, the grievance process can still take quite some time.

The courts might not hate pilots, but they love corporations and the system and process is stacked against labor.

I think the language is very clear personally, I also realize I'm not an expert. The courts will rule the correct way and won't be influenced by lobbies, etc. It's one of the few institutions in this country I still believe in.

There will be loopholes in every contract, our MEC along with ALPA need to minimize those loopholes and I feel they've done a good job of that in this proposal.

And you still believe the company will abide the 10 year contract and will park airplanes to keep the flow flowing...uhummm

Grievance
 

For those who don't believe it takes a long time let me give you examples. I filed one in November of 2003. Yes 03 not 13 and it was finally heard in February of 2013 yes 9 1/2 years later. Last one was filed in march of 2011 and I just won a few weeks ago, 3 years this time. So why do you think they wont violate anything they want if it saves them money. If its gonna cost them 10 million to park the airplanes but they will violate the flow and then be forced to pay 5 million in damages 5 years later what do you think they are gonna do

if they do that then someone better be flying the airplanes to make payments on them because the banks want there money. so which part of the contract will be violated by management, the fleet commitment or the flow commitment which one is cheaper and cause the less effect to the feed.

Even if the process does work, it still takes a long time.

On the other hand, parking aircraft (even the old 50 seaters) will cost the company money because the leases must be paid. That kind of violation gets settled in weeks or months, not years like pilot contract violations.

So when it comes down to it, which will the company violate?

If Eagle management is anything like all the other management's out there, then I would expect them to violate your flow in order to keep the planes flying. Not only do they delay the judgement, but they have a decent chance of winning if they can prove that the lack of new hires was unforeseen and outside of their control.

Your not seeing the grand scheme here. Ultimately 50% of aag mainline new hire slots will forever goto eagle! now add 25% to psa and maybe 15% to pdt. Suddenly the only off the street hires will be interns military and the friends and family plan.

Delta and even maybe united follow suit and suddenly the guys not at the airlines with the flow are in huge trouble. They are going to do all they can to prop up the low cost regional market as long as they can. If airline management forces everyone in to the cradle to grave model, they can put off the shortage even longer. Keep the musical chairs going in their favor?

Excerpt taken from PlaneBusiness Banter by Holly Hegeman, Editor
Friday March 21, 2014, Volume 18, Issue 11

Speaking of the regional airline sector, the pilots at American Eagle continue to vote on the tentative agreement proposal the Air Line Pilots Association MEC put out for a vote. The voting period on the TA ends next week, so we will then have an answer as to whether American Airlines will be using American Eagle to fly those sixty new Embraer E-Jets, or whether the flying will be dispersed amongst the list of regionals that bid for the work. As we mentioned previously, that RFP which breaks the flying up into three sets of 20 aircraft each has already gone out for bids.

I want to take a few minutes and talk about this vote, as I think it is one of the most important union votes we've seen in the industry of late. First of all, I would like to say to the leaders of the ALPA MEC who refused to recommend to members of their union how they should vote on this agreement -- shame on you. Abstention is not an option. (Three members voted to recommend the agreement to members, while six members abstained.) The members of your union elected you to represent them. They don't have the same level of access to management discussions and negotiations that you have. They don't have access to the same information on a national ALPA scale as you have. You were elected to represent them in situations just like this.

For a member of the Eagle MEC to stand on the sidelines, pull the political card, and not provide more guidance to members on such an important vote is, well, shameful.

Hope you guys can sleep at night.

Having said that, I want to say a few things about this proposed contract because there is a lot of bad information out there concerning it. I think American Eagle pilots need to vote yes, not no.

1) The number one misperception about this agreement that I have heard over and over again is that Eagle management will come back to ALPA if the union votes down the deal because no other regional will be able to hire pilots to staf the new flying.

If you are an American Eagle pilot and this is why you are going to vote no, you are in for a rude awakening. Is not going to happen. RFPs are out. There are hungry stand-alone regional airlines out there ready to pounce.

They will find the pilots.

2) On the reverse side of the argument, another misperception is that Eagle won't be able to hire anyone. I decided to ask around and see just how the hiring pool looks at American Eagle. Since we've heard mixed messages from other regional airlines of late, (including some mild hysteria) and since it would stand to reason that a job at Eagle, with a flow-through, would be better than a job at a standalone regional, guess what we found out?

According to more than one source (and they both coincide so I am going to go with the numbers) between the time that the first agreement was reached until the time the MEC voted not to send it out, weekly pilot applications went from 8 per week to 66 per week. Applications then dropped to only about 3 or 4 per week after the MEC voted not to send the deal out. Makes sense.

What does this tell you? It tells me that American Eagle with a pilot contract is looked upon as a desirable place for pilots to work.

How are applications looking now? I was told that after the "new" TA was reached, there was yet another spike in applications. Weekly applications are now back in the 50 to 55 per week range. And I am told the overwhelming majority of those applicants are qualified to fly the airplanes that need to be flown.

3) The flow-through agreement. What is the dif erence between what is in place now and what will be in place in the future if the TA passes?

Today, Eagle provides 50% of the monthly new hire class to American. If the class is 40, Eagle supplies 20. Under the new deal, 100% of the first 30 pilots American hires in a month will come from Eagle. That is a significant improvement, especially if American is hiring smaller classes, like 20 per month. Previously, only 10 would have flowed through to American; under the terms of the new contract, it would be all 20.

So if the class is 30, it is all Eagle. If it is 40, 30 are Eagle. Granted, if the new class is 60, only 30 will be Eagle. But that would still be 50% -- the same as the current agreement.

4) As best I can tell, not one pilot takes a paycut as part of this deal.

First Officers below 8 years and Captains below 12 years will still get step increases, Captains in years 15 to 17 will keep getting annual increases, First Officers who are promoted to Captains will get huge pay increases, and Captains who flow through to American will obviously hit the jackpot.

5) This deal guarantees 170 aircraft. The contract between Delta and Endeavor only guarantees 81.

Oh, and another thing I learned this week. While Endeavor pilots do have flow-through rights -- they only have 12 a month. In addition, they have to interview at Delta. Sources tell me that less than half of them are receiving job offers. All of Eagle's flow-through pilots will get an offer because there is no interview.

So why are pilots telling me they are going to vote no? Two main reasons.

1) "The only way to attract pilots is to raise pay and benefits." (See above. Apparently American is not having trouble getting applications.) I'm sure a lot of people would like to see the entire regional/mainline system gutted and changed -- I know I would. But this contract is not going to do that. Nor will this happen if the contract is not approved. But not approving this contract could make the lives of American Eagle pilots much worse. Sorry. Wish I could say otherwise. So if you want to vote no and "stand for the cause" it's not going to end well. As I said, those RFPs are already out there.


2) "Mainline carriers are making record profits. We want more."

Unfortunately, that is not how the broken regional airline model in the U.S. works. Or doesn't work. How it works right now is this: there are regional airlines out there that will bid on these RFPs at rates lower than the costs contained in this TA. That's a fact. A sad fact. It is the model that is broken. Given the constraints of that broken model, I say a "yes" to this contract beats the alternative.

We'll all find out which way the vote goes next week.

Now THAT is laughable. OMG!

Guess you never heard of the APA's "floor" grievance where pilots on furlough for almost ten years counted as "active." How about the EGL ALPA one where the final decision changed 180 from the prelim in just a couple weeks?

Time to take the blinders off and take stock of reality. :eek:

Anyone listen to Pedro's latest Webinar yesterday? I joined about 30 mins late or so and he sounded like a bumbling fool. Dropping threats about Piedmont taking the planes because their "Q400s" (yes, that's what he said) will be retiring soon and they'll need new planes. I couldn't take it anymore after about 5 mins and left. The desperation in his voice was laughable.

Interesting, that is basically the rumor being floated by lower level management at Endeavor right now... Big announcement supposed to arrive beginning of April... No chance of any kind of pay or benefit increase but "what else will get the apps flowing in?"

Eagle TA- What did you vote?
 

On the flow alone, according to the TA, is 30 a month flow. Thats 360 new hires a year. Does anyone actually believe this is a realistic number? This doesn't even take into account people retiring or leaving for other airlines. Current attrition at AE is close to 50 pilots a month. Thats 600 pilots a year that AE needs to recruit just to maintain status quo.

Management says we have enhanced flow. The TA has zero enhancements to flow. It is still at 50%. The only thing it offers is enhanced metering. This means the company plans on metering pilots if the TA passes. We currently have a grievance on the companies current metering practices. Why we would applaud the company for violating our arbitrated award, by voting yes, is beyond comprehension.
Either way we vote we will shrink. I voted no. Id rather keep my pay while we shrink, than lose pay while we shrink.

The ONLY flow is the few grandfathered Mesaba pilots, and that's almost all done. It's a "SSP" that , yes, is only getting about a 35% success rate. It's just a guaranteed interview if you are a current captain, many of which seem to be already deemed not worthy because as part of it Delta gets full access to all of your company records at Endeavor (sick usage, discipline, checkride notes ect.) Meanwhile ALPA sold a giant steaming turd contract to Endeavor pilots under the assumption that this SSP would get everyone to Delta easily and quickly.... FAIL!

I'm told he actually admitted/stated it on his webinar of a goal closer to 300 planes. I was told 280ish, which is what I posted over a week ago.

Their idea is eventually for all AA hiring to go through envoy. If that becomes the only route to AA they will not have a shortage at all.

That might be what they publish, but the truth is it wouldn't be sustainable, they would have to hire from other regionals.

The best way for American to deal a blow to their competition is to hire the talent away from other regionals, not destroy their own regional. One could look at the flow as a management tool to control the attrition rate of departing regional pilots. One could also theorize that regionals without any flow agreement would move through the hiring system the fastest.

You're missing their intent. The front door to AA will only be through Envoy. They'll take 60 a month from Envoy to fill classes, and Envoy will hire 60 a month continuously. They will hire from other regionals, but they'll be hired at Envoy. AA HR will do all pilot selection and hiring for Envoy. You get your date of hire for AA when you start at Envoy. Their pipeline program will also be expanded.

So, you can go fly for RAH and hope to be hired someplace after a few years; or you can get hired by AA starting at Envoy with your date of hire for AA starting right then at Envoy. You can then apply anywhere just like a RAH guy, or you can just transfer in seniority order to AA.

The only problem is Envoy will not be able to hire 60 per month. There are some pilots near the end of the training pipeline right now. There are other pilots who will jump ship and join. Then there will likely be 2 airline failures this year to capture pilots. --but after that, there is nothing really in the pilot pipeline. The industry is just now starting to scratch the surface of this problem. Imagine what it will look like in 6 months. The shortage doesn't even peak for another 6 years.

Mason, I have followed your post for a while. You have contributed good factual information in the past.

Is this rumors or factual information. Does voting yes or no, on the current TA, change any of their plans to hire to AA through envoy?

There's over 10k pilots begging for jobs at majors. I agree with mason, this is their plan. Esp if delta files suit right behind American, that closes off 20000 mainline jobs to the regional world.

Im interested in the people that claim the "did not vote" category. Are they people that are not Eagle employees/unable to vote in some fashion? If you are able to vote why wouldn't you? The larger the turnout the better off we will be no matter which direction you lean. 28% is almost 800 votes. Your voice matters.

Excellent question, why on earth would it depend on a new agreement passing? One of the big 3 is going to do this regardless, then the other 2 will quickly follow suit. It's as close as you can get to merging the companies without actually merging the companies.

Your vote changes nothing. This is how they plan to staff the regional flying. Envoy will be the entry level position for AA. The company will not even need to negotiate with our guys (APA) for numbers either. If all hiring comes from Envoy, then your date of hire at Envoy ensures your place on the AA-APA seniority list. The info comes from the same sources as everything else I've told you.

Take it for what it's worth. There are many more planes in the horizon than these 60/90. You can fully expect that they do plan Envoy to be 280-300 planes. That doesn't mean they won't give a few dozen away to other operators in the process. It will buy them time and punish you for a no vote.

My advice. Vote no. The long term gains outweigh the short term pains.

I think your MEC should have held their ground; but I do understand their reasons for what they did. It was a unique solution. It allowed them to send it for a pilot vote and lobby against it at the same time. Pretty smart actually. It also bought you guys three more weeks to hopefully realize the industry has changed; and you're in the pilots seat.