Airline Pilot Central Forums - Expect it to get messy before it gets clean.

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- - Expect it to get messy before it gets clean. (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/80844-expect-get-messy-before-gets-clean.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRidger328 (Post 1617420)

The only way this will move forwards and benefit the pilots is if those 10,000 pilots stick together. In the next weeks, ALPA and Teamsters need to come together and present a single contract framework. Basics of pay rates by aircraft and longevity, pay bumps, soft pay (cancellation, junior manning, DH pay) policies, medical costs and contract longevity. Since Skywest and a few others are due for negotiations soon they need to also present this as their starting point for negotiation. If these 13,000 pilots can work together and make a reasonable and defensible framework then all these no votes will truly mean something.

This is what needs to be done. All three unions get together and present your respective managements with the exact same contract.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Carr (Post 1617458)

It's decent money. But if it ever comes to fruition that that gage of equipment comes to mainline Delta, the rate actually kind of sucks. here's the JB rate for the 190 as of 2014;

CA yr 1 131.10 yr 12 170.13

FO yr 1 49.56 yr 12 115.67

Here's UAL's rates effective for 2014

CA yr 1 120.64 yr 12 131.42

FO yr 1 66.10 yr 12 89.75

EMB-190 seats 10% more people than the 900, so there should be a difference. DAL and UAL have a 195 scale as well. Tack on the 16% DC into the mix and you have a very com-probable view. Pay rates are only one component of the over all pay basket. JBL has done a nice job of raising that portion of the bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyde (Post 1617509)

This is what needs to be done. All three unions get together and present your respective managements with the exact same contract.

Well you have many associations, but one that calls itself a Union. Then there are the non-Unionised carriers to bring to the table as well. If that is all done then I imagine the DOJ saying that we can't do this, because it will have created a monopoly. Then in comes the WTO and objects, but all the while Norwegian, EY and EK will have skirted the issue and undercut us all.

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Originally Posted by Jefferson (Post 1617290)

Okay, so roughly 66% of ALL regional pilots have told their (go between) management that they understand supply and demand economics and that they have a (newly) limited commodity. Its a start. Of course, the ONLY reason the regional airlines exist is to have that "B-scale" bottom of the totem pole group to keep labor costs in check for the balance of the industry. Basically, with the majors controlling/owning most everything but flight crews/ mechanics, Regional airlines are nothing more than staffing services. The cost of managing the regional airline is where the Flight Crew/mechanic salary parity goes. Delta pays a 4 year 112 seat airplane F/O $112 and hour while 76 seat regional F/0's pull in around $40/hr. 3/4 of the seats for about 1/3 of the pay.. and the EXACT SAME JOB SKILL SET.
Don't expect the majors to give up this massive bargaining chip without a fight. They have spent BILLIONS in the past to have this position at the table... it's gonna get interesting.

$112/hour? Let's be realistic here. I don't think the regional plots are looking to make legacy FO pay, just enough to get them out of poverty. Look at the kudos C5 got for their recently agreed to LOA. It's not rocket science. If the majors are going to pull the plug on regionals because they don't want to pay regional pilots a livable wage then let them. They'll be paying a hell of a lot more to pay their own pilots to fly these routes in 717's anyway. Now that is the epitome of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 1617358)

It's all going according to the plan DAL and ALPA crafted. When regional pay rises to that level the advantage of outsourcing is gone. DAL (and the others, but especially DAL since they've positioned themselves to take advantage of it) will eliminate most RJ flying, taking the CRJ9s and E175s they own to be flown by mainline at the current pay rates in the current DAL PWA. Notice how ALPA is suddenly claiming there's no pilot shortage, it's a pay problem? How convenient.

The skeleton of the regionals will return to the 90s "commuter" airline days code sharing and at risk flying. Endeavor and Envoy will cease to exist. RAH will move toward UAL and AA until they follow suit. Silver and Great Lakes are well positioned for growth in picking up dropped CRJ routes to small cities. SkyWest and its subsidiaries will most likely use their remaining CRJ200s and 700s for at risk flying and use their large airplanes to start a stand alone airline.

It's all going according to the plan...

Welcome to the dance. Exactly what I said when DAL went after Comair. The plan has been in the works since at least 2009, just waiting for the right time and right person to implement it. The legacies can and will cherry pick routes and move them to mainline flying. What's left will fall to the side for someone to pick up and try to figure out how to profit off of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhauler (Post 1617519)

EMB-190 seats 10% more people than the 900, so there should be a difference.

Mostly, I agree that more seats should equal more money. But then I look at how UPS does it, and maybe they're on to something. But along the lines of more seats=more money, look at the 744 and 777 at both UAL and DAL. Not always so black and white/cut and dried, is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhauler (Post 1617519)

DAL and UAL have a 195 scale as well.

True, sorry, don't have the DAL scale handy for the 195, can you post it? But here's the UAL one for 2014;

CA yr 1 141.81 yr 12 154.48

FO yr 1 66.10 FO yr 12 105.51

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhauler (Post 1617519)

Tack on the 16% DC into the mix and you have a very com-probable view.

Agreed. But keep in mind, those things are relatively "new" if you will. Considering the post 9/11/BK's and the days of frozen/terminated pension plans, and FINALLY being able to get DC's BACK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhauler (Post 1617519)

Pay rates are only one component of the over all pay basket. JBL has done a nice job of raising that portion of the bar.

Again, agree. The 3 different CBA's I've worked under have proven this point EVERY year of the 15 I've worked under them. So it's not like your point is a new one to me. I know 2 JB 190 CA's that broke 200K last year, and they're on track to do it again this year. And I'd hardly rate their QOL as miserable, bad, or substandard while hitting those numbers. So yep, it's not ALL about the pay rates.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT flaming you nor peeing in your cheerios. But in the mantra that some (NOT saying you) take of "we're a legacy airline!!!!!! we've got the BEST of everything!!!!!!! The best rates, the best retirement, EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!", the legacies that have CR9/EMB190/195, or whatever else are going to have to step up next round. At least for the guys that like to brag about EVERYTHING anyway.

And I know, I know....... If/when the legacies DO see those aircraft show up, they'll be "junior, the pilot won't be on them very long......." Which is always a good thing. But then ask a UAL narrow body FO that was luck enough to NOT be furloughed and barely clinging on to a narrow body seat. With a crappy pay scale, a crappy monthly guaranty, crappy work rules, whatever.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRidger328 (Post 1617420)

Thats a good idea, I wonder if it could really happen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRidger328 (Post 1617420)

I like this! I can work!