I am new to this forum. I have read some opinions that are pretty much way out in left field, and some right on the head. Having said this, hotmomma can you post a pic of yourself? I can forgive you if you really are hot! If you are not hot, then life is going to be a long difficult journey.

 

is there such a thing as a 'smart mistake'?

 

Being convinced is not the same as being correct and with each comment you make only makes it more scary...

 

Expectation of perfection is simplistic and unrealistic. It is also not borne out by any statistical studies of performance be it an airline pilot or any other task. I think I read that on average, there are 5-7 significant errors on each flight. Granted, most errors are caught OR most happen without consequence.

But no one is paid to make errors and personally, the one butt on the airplane I am most concerned about is MINE. IF I get my fanny up and down with some degree of comfort, efficiency and safety, those on/in the same airplane will also.

And really, does one *really* think 'hell, I just got 10 people on board so I can do what I want..." and the next day, "Oh, jez.. I got 100 people on board so I gotta fly extra safe..."? No one has a sliding scale of skill and proficiency and safety based on the number of people on board.

 

Anybody by chance know how much rest that CMR crew was on when they operated that early AM?

 

Both pilots had legal and adequate crew rest. It was not a 'stand-up' as some carriers call it.. (late night departure without 3-4 hours rest and then 1 leg out..)

Lot of other hufacts issues combining for a fatal error but crew rest does not seem to be one of them.

 

Then why does a 737 CA make more than a CRJ700 CA that flies the same route??

Perfection is expected and demanded. That is part of being a professional pilot. Any performance by myself that is less than perfect is a failure on my part and I strive to be better. Same with any professional career - athletes, manufacturing, lawyers. You don't buy a coffee pot, discover it doesn't work and think "well, the guy making this may have had a bad day so it's OK that this doesn't work and I'll go buy another" rather than try to get your $60 back.

Totally agree.

 

737 CA makes more because it was negotiated and the party negotiating had enough strength to play that card. And now the deck has been reshuffled and the other player has a better hand.. thus lower pay for 737 drivers and in many cases, loss of pensions... simple case of having the power to play the hand. Witness Johnny O's ability to fill classes even though I have never heard one single line pilot say anything good about him.

Second, as a check airman, I didn't expect perfection and in fact, on a check ride, I preferred to see a few errors and watch how the crew worked together. No errors and I didn't know if it was the one time these guys were the aces of the bases.. but if they erred and recovered (monitor, challenge, respond, etc.. all the CRM and stick and rudder stuff) then I knew it was a good crew.

And I guess we have to define perfection. Is it a flight that departs on time and arrives on time and no altitude deviations? Or is it something more realistic? Did the Capt have to ask the F/O what the taxi instructions were after maneuvering out of the ramp? No confusion over what ATC said?

Granted, one strives for perfection and the goal is always to improve... but perfection? I don't think so. And the gulf between expectation and reality may be one of the prime causes for a lot of modern heartburn.

Your coffee pot.. it is a machine and two things we know from HuFacts is 1) things break and 2) people make mistakes. That doesn't excuse mistakes but it does put us in a frame of defense against errors.

James Reason developed a matrix to assign culpability that moves from the left where the individual is NOT responsible to the right where it changes from an error to a willful deviation.

IF *I* provide *you* with the wrong tools, the wrong checklist, the wrong procedures and *you* fail, who is at fault? Who is culpable?

Example.. years ago, we taught stall recoveries but limited thrust to 'max takeoff thrust' so as not to 'overboost the engines.' That mixes a lot of stuff.. you don't overboost a jet engine. You can go above 'normal limits' but an overboost is a mostly a recip term. And unless you consider stalls a normal event, normal limits do not apply. Unfortunately the procedure was taught and well learned by the Air Florida crew and when they were stalling, they NEVER pushed the throttles up. The learned and did the procedure they were taught. What I am surprised at is some operators still teach takeoff thrust as maximum allowed on a stall recovery. DUMB...

Perfection.. in typing this, I have made a few mistakes and had to go back and re-type it. I caught the error. To use the jargon, I mitigated the error.

One final.. in countless forums, you see a repeated mistake where guys are talking about "losers" and invariably type "loosers". So, what mistake is being made? Typing, education, spelling skills, erudition, poor reading skills? What? Or do we just chalk it up to them being 'loosers'?

 

And they say chivalry is dead...

 

Were you trying to make a point?

Chivalry..N. he sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

Nothing in the definition precludes self preservation. You might check the definition of a word before using it.. or you can just keep firing from the hip.

Anyone who says they are not concerned about their own fanny is a liar or does not belong in a cockpit.

So, there you are in enroute from ATL.. and your MAIN concern is getting that little old grandmother in 29C to LGA even though there is snow and ice, braking action reported fair to poor on 04 and the ATIS is talking about Low Level Windshear and nobody is missing... but you're not concerned about self...not the slightest pucker factor as you watch the airspeed dance around on final... just thinking about Granny. How altruistic...

(I'll save you the time...unselfishly concerned for or devoted to the welfare of others)

I would say spare us the drama but in fact, you and your posts are actually quite amusing and revealing. Keep it up.