Fee For Departure Open House
07-03-2014 | 05:05 AM
#51
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 21
From: Sleeping
But they do care where a pilot comes from.
Last edited by Moonwolf; 07-03-2014 at 05:19 AM.
07-03-2014 | 07:35 AM
#52
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 622
Likes: 1
From: It's hot out here.
1) The payscales were the same at every regional (exponentially better than they are now).
2) There was one seniority list.
3) A pilot did not start at the bottom of a seniority list if he/she decides to move from Regional A to Regional B.
4) Diversity in regionals achieved by bidding software, time off, holiday pay, vacation, etc. This could be negotiated at the company level with local representation.
5) The minimum pay for any new hire FO was $45K.
Then:
1) The whipsaw stops.
2) A pilot makes a decision on the merits of a company, not based on pay.
3) A pilot is not penalized 5,10,15 years of seniority if they decide to move companies.
4) A pilot who prefers PBS over hard lines has a choice, again without penalty.
5) A new hire pilot who has just invested well over $100K for his education and training is compensated as a professional and does not have to live like a hobo.
The current system is ineffective and only serves to divide us. Look at the comments the PSA pilots get, or the Compass pilots for being awarded the AA flying or the Skywest pilots for not having a union. WE bash each other on these forums and the fact of the matter is that we are all doing the same thing, flying airplanes to make a living.
Like I said previously, I am neither pro union nor anti-union. I do believe the current system is ineffective and perhaps counterproductive to the effort.
The beatings may begin
07-03-2014 | 07:39 AM
#53
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,144
Likes: 801
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
By one voice, I mean the entire regional pilot group. What if, and I'm hypothesizing, we had ONE union that represented the entire regional airline pilot group? I don't mean ALPA either. I mean a union that solely represented the regional pilot group's interest. IF:
1) The payscales were the same at every regional (exponentially better than they are now).
2) There was one seniority list.
3) A pilot did not start at the bottom of a seniority list if he/she decides to move from Regional A to Regional B.
4) Diversity in regionals achieved by bidding software, time off, holiday pay, vacation, etc. This could be negotiated at the company level with local representation.
5) The minimum pay for any new hire FO was $45K.
Then:
1) The whipsaw stops.
2) A pilot makes a decision on the merits of a company, not based on pay.
3) A pilot is not penalized 5,10,15 years of seniority if they decide to move companies.
4) A pilot who prefers PBS over hard lines has a choice, again without penalty.
5) A new hire pilot who has just invested well over $100K for his education and training is compensated as a professional and does not have to live like a hobo.
The current system is ineffective and only serves to divide us. Look at the comments the PSA pilots get, or the Compass pilots for being awarded the AA flying or the Skywest pilots for not having a union. WE bash each other on these forums and the fact of the matter is that we are all doing the same thing, flying airplanes to make a living.
Like I said previously, I am neither pro union nor anti-union. I do believe the current system is ineffective and perhaps counterproductive to the effort.
The beatings may begin
1) The payscales were the same at every regional (exponentially better than they are now).
2) There was one seniority list.
3) A pilot did not start at the bottom of a seniority list if he/she decides to move from Regional A to Regional B.
4) Diversity in regionals achieved by bidding software, time off, holiday pay, vacation, etc. This could be negotiated at the company level with local representation.
5) The minimum pay for any new hire FO was $45K.
Then:
1) The whipsaw stops.
2) A pilot makes a decision on the merits of a company, not based on pay.
3) A pilot is not penalized 5,10,15 years of seniority if they decide to move companies.
4) A pilot who prefers PBS over hard lines has a choice, again without penalty.
5) A new hire pilot who has just invested well over $100K for his education and training is compensated as a professional and does not have to live like a hobo.
The current system is ineffective and only serves to divide us. Look at the comments the PSA pilots get, or the Compass pilots for being awarded the AA flying or the Skywest pilots for not having a union. WE bash each other on these forums and the fact of the matter is that we are all doing the same thing, flying airplanes to make a living.
Like I said previously, I am neither pro union nor anti-union. I do believe the current system is ineffective and perhaps counterproductive to the effort.
The beatings may begin
07-03-2014 | 07:49 AM
#55
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
I agree. The union works great for the Majors. Not so well for the regionals. The management group the MEC is negotiating with at the regionals is NOT the management group that makes the decision. The Major's MEC representatives do not have a multi-tiered system to navigate.
It's like asking your big brother if you can borrow the family car, he might say yes, but if your Dad says no, you don't get the car.
If we had one union and one seniority list, that would be pretty powerful. I don't think that will happen.
It's like asking your big brother if you can borrow the family car, he might say yes, but if your Dad says no, you don't get the car.
If we had one union and one seniority list, that would be pretty powerful. I don't think that will happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ORDinary
The only way to "sound off with one voice" is with a union. Not to state the obvious, but that is exactly what a union is.
By one voice, I mean the entire regional pilot group. What if, and I'm hypothesizing, we had ONE union that represented the entire regional airline pilot group? I don't mean ALPA either. I mean a union that solely represented the regional pilot group's interest. IF:
1) The payscales were the same at every regional (exponentially better than they are now).
2) There was one seniority list.
3) A pilot did not start at the bottom of a seniority list if he/she decides to move from Regional A to Regional B.
4) Diversity in regionals achieved by bidding software, time off, holiday pay, vacation, etc. This could be negotiated at the company level with local representation.
5) The minimum pay for any new hire FO was $45K.
Then:
1) The whipsaw stops.
2) A pilot makes a decision on the merits of a company, not based on pay.
3) A pilot is not penalized 5,10,15 years of seniority if they decide to move companies.
4) A pilot who prefers PBS over hard lines has a choice, again without penalty.
5) A new hire pilot who has just invested well over $100K for his education and training is compensated as a professional and does not have to live like a hobo.
The current system is ineffective and only serves to divide us. Look at the comments the PSA pilots get, or the Compass pilots for being awarded the AA flying or the Skywest pilots for not having a union. WE bash each other on these forums and the fact of the matter is that we are all doing the same thing, flying airplanes to make a living.
Like I said previously, I am neither pro union nor anti-union. I do believe the current system is ineffective and perhaps counterproductive to the effort.
The beatings may begin
Originally Posted by ORDinary
The only way to "sound off with one voice" is with a union. Not to state the obvious, but that is exactly what a union is.
By one voice, I mean the entire regional pilot group. What if, and I'm hypothesizing, we had ONE union that represented the entire regional airline pilot group? I don't mean ALPA either. I mean a union that solely represented the regional pilot group's interest. IF:
1) The payscales were the same at every regional (exponentially better than they are now).
2) There was one seniority list.
3) A pilot did not start at the bottom of a seniority list if he/she decides to move from Regional A to Regional B.
4) Diversity in regionals achieved by bidding software, time off, holiday pay, vacation, etc. This could be negotiated at the company level with local representation.
5) The minimum pay for any new hire FO was $45K.
Then:
1) The whipsaw stops.
2) A pilot makes a decision on the merits of a company, not based on pay.
3) A pilot is not penalized 5,10,15 years of seniority if they decide to move companies.
4) A pilot who prefers PBS over hard lines has a choice, again without penalty.
5) A new hire pilot who has just invested well over $100K for his education and training is compensated as a professional and does not have to live like a hobo.
The current system is ineffective and only serves to divide us. Look at the comments the PSA pilots get, or the Compass pilots for being awarded the AA flying or the Skywest pilots for not having a union. WE bash each other on these forums and the fact of the matter is that we are all doing the same thing, flying airplanes to make a living.
Like I said previously, I am neither pro union nor anti-union. I do believe the current system is ineffective and perhaps counterproductive to the effort.
The beatings may begin
07-03-2014 | 08:30 AM
#56
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 622
Likes: 1
From: It's hot out here.
[INDENT][QUOTE=Nevets;1676968]What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
07-03-2014 | 09:25 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 854
Likes: 0
[QUOTE=skypilot35;1676987][INDENT]
Comparing regionals with unions to ones without doesn't give you the whole picture. Compare the current regional industry to one in which none have unions. The bar, I think, would be even lower. Not by much as far as pay goes, because as you pointed out, even with unions the companies lower the bar via whipsaw. Without unions, who knows, maybe companies would return to the days of upgrades based on "merit" instead of seniority, and then proceed to define merit in some self-serving way. I'm not saying Skywest would have done something like that while all the other regionals didn't either, but take away all the unions and don't you think one of them would try some dirty tactics in order to compete? Doesn't history repeat itself? The race to the bottom would definitely speed up without some unions, and bottom would be lower in a lot of ways that you're not considering. Maintaining unions at other regionals has affected even the non-union ones, in more ways than you are considering.
And of course, there are other benefits a union provides besides contract negotiations. What process do you guys have for contract compliance? Flawed as it is, when the company violates our contract, we (envoy, and anyone else under the RLA) have a process to grieve the violation and get compensated. It takes a while, but I have been paid back quite a few times over the years for contract violations, and have more in the works. We just won a large grievance because the company gave extra flying, out of seniority order, to low time FOs in order get them to ATP mins before the rule change. Everyone in the company who was an FO then stands to receive possibly a few thousand dollars. We also have a grievance award to thank for our current flow to AA. Of course, these are not extra perks, we are just getting what was owed to us, via an arbitrator. I don't know if your company violates your contract often like ours does, but I can't imagine not having a way to at least try to force them into compliance.
What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
And of course, there are other benefits a union provides besides contract negotiations. What process do you guys have for contract compliance? Flawed as it is, when the company violates our contract, we (envoy, and anyone else under the RLA) have a process to grieve the violation and get compensated. It takes a while, but I have been paid back quite a few times over the years for contract violations, and have more in the works. We just won a large grievance because the company gave extra flying, out of seniority order, to low time FOs in order get them to ATP mins before the rule change. Everyone in the company who was an FO then stands to receive possibly a few thousand dollars. We also have a grievance award to thank for our current flow to AA. Of course, these are not extra perks, we are just getting what was owed to us, via an arbitrator. I don't know if your company violates your contract often like ours does, but I can't imagine not having a way to at least try to force them into compliance.
07-03-2014 | 09:32 AM
#58
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
From: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
[QUOTE=skypilot35;1676987][INDENT]
I can say with absolute certainty that with a union we would have had a say in more than a few things:
PBS
ESPP
Pay, or lack there of.
Health Care
Bonus Plan
ect.
Problem is, that when you have only been there for awhile there is no reference to measure against, I can say with absolute certainty, that Chimps cost cutting has cost me more than 20K per year as a captain, and the QOL hits just keep on coming. Klen sends out the 1.5X letter, well guess what I won't pick up a single leg even at 2X. The airline under-staffs then relies on greedy pilots to fly hidden trips that would have been given to line holders who have been turned into reserves by management staffing shennagians.
The SAPA cheerleaders crow about the 1.95% they are saving, but its a faux savings, but by all means keep on keeping on. On another thread someone estimated that the new upgrade time is around 10.5 years, this should provide hours of whining and sniveling for the masses, plus lots of airport appreciation sits so the Ayn Rand crowd can feel better(objectively) about their lot in life.
What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
PBS
ESPP
Pay, or lack there of.
Health Care
Bonus Plan
ect.
Problem is, that when you have only been there for awhile there is no reference to measure against, I can say with absolute certainty, that Chimps cost cutting has cost me more than 20K per year as a captain, and the QOL hits just keep on coming. Klen sends out the 1.5X letter, well guess what I won't pick up a single leg even at 2X. The airline under-staffs then relies on greedy pilots to fly hidden trips that would have been given to line holders who have been turned into reserves by management staffing shennagians.
The SAPA cheerleaders crow about the 1.95% they are saving, but its a faux savings, but by all means keep on keeping on. On another thread someone estimated that the new upgrade time is around 10.5 years, this should provide hours of whining and sniveling for the masses, plus lots of airport appreciation sits so the Ayn Rand crowd can feel better(objectively) about their lot in life.
07-03-2014 | 09:34 AM
#59
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
From: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
An this is why SKYW and every other regional is screwed beyond belief:
ATP Flight School: Airline Training Programs™
The 64K option to get a 23K job. It is getting entertaining!
ATP Flight School: Airline Training Programs™
The 64K option to get a 23K job. It is getting entertaining!
07-03-2014 | 09:49 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Do you honestly think that Eagle, PSA, Mesa and republic would have been better of non-union and at the whim of their managements? This is what a lot of anti-union people miss. It's not just the gains. It also mitigating the loses when times are not good.
I don't think it could be any worse....management seemed to do mostly what they wanted even though a union was in place and when they couldn't they totally f@cked their pilots over. Where was the benefit?
My point, if I were to have one, is that ALPA is a Major airline union and I am curious if you were to ask the pilots who lost their pensions a few years ago how they felt about their union, what kind of response you'd get.
I am neither pro nor anti-union. I honestly do not believe the current representation at the majority of regionals (Compass seems solid) is funcitonal (has teeth).
I don't think it could be any worse....management seemed to do mostly what they wanted even though a union was in place and when they couldn't they totally f@cked their pilots over. Where was the benefit?
My point, if I were to have one, is that ALPA is a Major airline union and I am curious if you were to ask the pilots who lost their pensions a few years ago how they felt about their union, what kind of response you'd get.
I am neither pro nor anti-union. I honestly do not believe the current representation at the majority of regionals (Compass seems solid) is funcitonal (has teeth).
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