Fee For Departure Open House
07-03-2014 | 10:17 AM
#61
:-)
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Likes: 1
Comparing regionals with unions to ones without doesn't give you the whole picture. Compare the current regional industry to one in which none have unions. The bar, I think, would be even lower. Not by much as far as pay goes, because as you pointed out, even with unions the companies lower the bar via whipsaw. Without unions, who knows, maybe companies would return to the days of upgrades based on "merit" instead of seniority, and then proceed to define merit in some self-serving way. I'm not saying Skywest would have done something like that while all the other regionals didn't either, but take away all the unions and don't you think one of them would try some dirty tactics in order to compete? Doesn't history repeat itself? The race to the bottom would definitely speed up without some unions, and bottom would be lower in a lot of ways that you're not considering. Maintaining unions at other regionals has affected even the non-union ones, in more ways than you are considering.
And of course, there are other benefits a union provides besides contract negotiations. What process do you guys have for contract compliance? Flawed as it is, when the company violates our contract, we (envoy, and anyone else under the RLA) have a process to grieve the violation and get compensated. It takes a while, but I have been paid back quite a few times over the years for contract violations, and have more in the works. We just won a large grievance because the company gave extra flying, out of seniority order, to low time FOs in order get them to ATP mins before the rule change. Everyone in the company who was an FO then stands to receive possibly a few thousand dollars. We also have a grievance award to thank for our current flow to AA. Of course, these are not extra perks, we are just getting what was owed to us, via an arbitrator. I don't know if your company violates your contract often like ours does, but I can't imagine not having a way to at least try to force them into compliance.
And of course, there are other benefits a union provides besides contract negotiations. What process do you guys have for contract compliance? Flawed as it is, when the company violates our contract, we (envoy, and anyone else under the RLA) have a process to grieve the violation and get compensated. It takes a while, but I have been paid back quite a few times over the years for contract violations, and have more in the works. We just won a large grievance because the company gave extra flying, out of seniority order, to low time FOs in order get them to ATP mins before the rule change. Everyone in the company who was an FO then stands to receive possibly a few thousand dollars. We also have a grievance award to thank for our current flow to AA. Of course, these are not extra perks, we are just getting what was owed to us, via an arbitrator. I don't know if your company violates your contract often like ours does, but I can't imagine not having a way to at least try to force them into compliance.
07-03-2014 | 10:29 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
[QUOTE=skypilot35;1676987][INDENT]
I am sure you have a good place to work. Rather your union or non you shouldn't support INC. mgmt attacking XJT labor. When their done with them they'll come after you to, remember your not the cheapest in town, proven by the recent AA award. You should be studying the Republic, Mesa, and Compass books and deciding if that's what you want for yourself. Their is no reason not to support a group producing more than yours, and no reason to support one producing less. At the end of the day your lack of union limits the support you can offer another company producing better labor package than yours.
What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
07-03-2014 | 10:32 AM
#63
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
[QUOTE=skypilot35;1676987][INDENT]
The term, you don't know what you don't know, comes to mind. Since you don't have a centralized independent organization with fiduciary responsibility to the pilots acting as the clearinghouse to everything that goes on within the pilot group (grievances, firings, training failures, government actions, and just a general collection of feedback from line pilots), you simply cannot have the entire big picture of what is happening to your pilot group as a whole. Believe me, any smart management WILL ALWAYS try to get away with as much as they can with as little cost as they can when it comes to pilots. And they should! That's their fiduciary responsibility to the BOD and ultimately the shareholders. A union is just a counter balance. A way to have an equilibrium for the current state of affairs. Each pilot group is going to have different difficulties depending on management and how much leverage they have. You cannot compare how other union shops are when deciding if it's good for you. Many people say, what good has a union been at Mesa? Well, do you really believe that Mesa pilots would've been better off dealing with Ornstien as a non-union, at-will, one on one basis? Hell no! At XJT we had a very good relationship with management until 2009. Very few grievances, union and management worked collaborative, and we were compensated fairly.
You say you are not for or against a union. Maybe that is because you don't know what you don't know. But in reality, if you are not for gaining leverage for yourself, even in the slightest bit a union may currently have (which I don't would be the case if there was a union at Skywest), then there isn't a good enough reason not to be for a union. Like I said, a union for pilots does way more than just negotiate and enforce a contract. To me, that is secondary or tertiary. Participating in making aviation safer is number one. Working towards one unified organization for the betterment of the profession is second. Job protection/insurance policy is right up there as well. Government advocacy in order to counter act some of Congress' latest idea or lack there of. The contract is actually low on my list. All those things, except for your employment contract (other than in an indirect way) are all things that are best and sometimes solely leveraged by a unionized pilot group.
What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
You say you are not for or against a union. Maybe that is because you don't know what you don't know. But in reality, if you are not for gaining leverage for yourself, even in the slightest bit a union may currently have (which I don't would be the case if there was a union at Skywest), then there isn't a good enough reason not to be for a union. Like I said, a union for pilots does way more than just negotiate and enforce a contract. To me, that is secondary or tertiary. Participating in making aviation safer is number one. Working towards one unified organization for the betterment of the profession is second. Job protection/insurance policy is right up there as well. Government advocacy in order to counter act some of Congress' latest idea or lack there of. The contract is actually low on my list. All those things, except for your employment contract (other than in an indirect way) are all things that are best and sometimes solely leveraged by a unionized pilot group.
07-03-2014 | 10:36 AM
#64
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
[QUOTE=ClickClickBoom;1677026]
Just to clarify, it's now 1.9% and they are discussing lowering it more. Also, your dues are tax deductible. So if you are in the 25% tax bracket and you itemize, your effective dues rate is actually 1.425% (1.9x75%).
[INDENT]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
I can say with absolute certainty that with a union we would have had a say in more than a few things:
PBS
ESPP
Pay, or lack there of.
Health Care
Bonus Plan
ect.
Problem is, that when you have only been there for awhile there is no reference to measure against, I can say with absolute certainty, that Chimps cost cutting has cost me more than 20K per year as a captain, and the QOL hits just keep on coming. Klen sends out the 1.5X letter, well guess what I won't pick up a single leg even at 2X. The airline under-staffs then relies on greedy pilots to fly hidden trips that would have been given to line holders who have been turned into reserves by management staffing shennagians.
The SAPA cheerleaders crow about the 1.95% they are saving, but its a faux savings, but by all means keep on keeping on. On another thread someone estimated that the new upgrade time is around 10.5 years, this should provide hours of whining and sniveling for the masses, plus lots of airport appreciation sits so the Ayn Rand crowd can feel better(objectively) about their lot in life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
What I'm saying is that even at regionals, without a union, you will always get less than what you would get with a union. Both during good times and bad. And there are many other things that airline pilot unions provided that I believe are more important than a contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
I think your point would be difficult to prove or disprove without looking at each individual airlines pros and cons. Subjectively, outside looking in on some carriers with unions, ASA, ExpressJet, Envoy, Republic, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa, TSA; are these companies better off? Again, I am not arguing against unions, I am saying the current system is extremely flawed, it does not work. I understand that ALPA is "working" to better it, but I do not believe they are fully vested in the fight. It is beneficial to the Major airline pilot group to have pilots at the regional level making less money. Again, subjective observation.
These are all things that ALPA has been trying to and is still working on. But honestly, it doesn't help when the largest regional pilot group continually refuses to engage. How do you expect this to happen when 3200 of us don't participate? And now we are starting to see the consequences. DALPA has set a bar, albeit low, to have 35% of their new hires come from ALPA. Now you see this from the UAL MEC. I wouldn't be surprised of DALPA didn't follow on this idea and maybe set the bar a little higher.
Make no mistake, there are numerous discussions on the SAPA forum regarding whether or not to unionize. Mostly from the same individuals and honestly some of their arguments hold merit. However, and I cannot speak for an entire pilot group, but personally when I compare the way things are "run" at Skywest (non-union) to the way things are at other regionals (union) I have to ask you why would we unionize? More specifically, what would it do for the industry? I do not mean to say that there are not improvements to be made at Skywest, but comparatively speaking, this is a pretty good place to work.
Regarding the United MEC offering an open house for only ALPA regionals, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. Will that force the Skywest pilots to unionize? No. I do believe that if the entire regional pilot group banded together as I mentioned above, then (I can only speak for myself) I would be interested.
I can say with absolute certainty that with a union we would have had a say in more than a few things:
PBS
ESPP
Pay, or lack there of.
Health Care
Bonus Plan
ect.
Problem is, that when you have only been there for awhile there is no reference to measure against, I can say with absolute certainty, that Chimps cost cutting has cost me more than 20K per year as a captain, and the QOL hits just keep on coming. Klen sends out the 1.5X letter, well guess what I won't pick up a single leg even at 2X. The airline under-staffs then relies on greedy pilots to fly hidden trips that would have been given to line holders who have been turned into reserves by management staffing shennagians.
The SAPA cheerleaders crow about the 1.95% they are saving, but its a faux savings, but by all means keep on keeping on. On another thread someone estimated that the new upgrade time is around 10.5 years, this should provide hours of whining and sniveling for the masses, plus lots of airport appreciation sits so the Ayn Rand crowd can feel better(objectively) about their lot in life.
07-03-2014 | 11:11 AM
#65
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
From: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
[QUOTE=Nevets;1677061]
Nev,
You are preaching to the choir, you have met me on at least 3 of the 4 last OCs. Until ALPA reaches out to the remaining regionals from the major carriers there will be a division between the groups. I was ALPA at a previous carrier and recognize the necessity, I have witnessed the manipulations of SKYW management, and watched Brad, unable to pull his unilateral BS. The guys who say it isn't so bad here weren't here for the really good years and had to watch the backsliding due to the lack of a CBA.
I am not too far from retirement so whatever happens isn't gonna be my problem for too long, I just feel sorry for those who have 30-35 years left and will be playing the catch-up game right until the next downturn, which if history serves me right will be here at some point...
You are preaching to the choir, you have met me on at least 3 of the 4 last OCs. Until ALPA reaches out to the remaining regionals from the major carriers there will be a division between the groups. I was ALPA at a previous carrier and recognize the necessity, I have witnessed the manipulations of SKYW management, and watched Brad, unable to pull his unilateral BS. The guys who say it isn't so bad here weren't here for the really good years and had to watch the backsliding due to the lack of a CBA.
I am not too far from retirement so whatever happens isn't gonna be my problem for too long, I just feel sorry for those who have 30-35 years left and will be playing the catch-up game right until the next downturn, which if history serves me right will be here at some point...
07-04-2014 | 07:04 AM
#67
Thread Starter
Line Holder
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
[QUOTE=Waitingformins;1677057]
Winner winner chicken dinner.
[INDENT]
I am sure you have a good place to work. Rather your union or non you shouldn't support INC. mgmt attacking XJT labor. When their done with them they'll come after you to, remember your not the cheapest in town, proven by the recent AA award. You should be studying the Republic, Mesa, and Compass books and deciding if that's what you want for yourself. Their is no reason not to support a group producing more than yours, and no reason to support one producing less. At the end of the day your lack of union limits the support you can offer another company producing better labor package than yours.
I am sure you have a good place to work. Rather your union or non you shouldn't support INC. mgmt attacking XJT labor. When their done with them they'll come after you to, remember your not the cheapest in town, proven by the recent AA award. You should be studying the Republic, Mesa, and Compass books and deciding if that's what you want for yourself. Their is no reason not to support a group producing more than yours, and no reason to support one producing less. At the end of the day your lack of union limits the support you can offer another company producing better labor package than yours.
07-04-2014 | 07:12 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
At the last Alpa drive it was pretty clear that it was going to be the last one. Now, it has been a few years, but I am guessing Alpa would be hesitant to try again and **** away millions of dollars on a pilot group that doesn't seem to care about their collective future.
07-04-2014 | 07:27 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
At the last Alpa drive it was pretty clear that it was going to be the last one. Now, it has been a few years, but I am guessing Alpa would be hesitant to try again and **** away millions of dollars on a pilot group that doesn't seem to care about their collective future.
07-04-2014 | 07:38 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
From: RJ Captain
How's Mesa? Have you even started yet?
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