IFLYACRJ

The National minimum wage is $7.50

7.5 x 40= 300 per week
300 x 52 = 15,600
Looks like Great Lakes pays below minimum wage and the others are not too far above it

Rnav

There will never be a shortage. Like ALPA or not, the article is correct. Plenty of guys/gals living abroad. The 1500hr rule only hurts pilots and makes them jump through more hurdles to get a job. Think the public really cares about how many hours the pilots have? Yeah right, sure doesn't stop them from flying abroad on carriers that hire wet tickets into a heavy.

There will never be a real shortage of mainline pilots, just low paying regional ones. But who cares about that? Actually the way the system is setup is perfect for the airlines. A bunch of low paying regional pilots want and deserve to go to mainline for higher wages/QOL. So there is a flood of apps there for a smaller number of jobs. Mainline isn't gonna give a crap about low regional pay because they still have plenty of apps to choose from. Hence, no shortage... ever.

CRM114

At the risk of sounding insensitive , I assure you I'm not, just one point.

A corporation only exists on paper and is a non-living non-breathing entity that is designed expressly, in theory, to make money. To assign a human emotion to an inanimate object, even when it's staffed by humans, will usually result in frustration.

That point aside, when entry level pilots stop accepting jobs at subpar wages the resulting labor demand will respond in a predictable way. Of course it never happens fast enough.

OnCenterline

Gentlemen,

A few points to ponder

1. The president of ALPA (and I assume IBT) must sign each contract, which means that they not only endorse, but condone, low regional pay.

2. How many of us--myself included--have left or lost well-paying jobs, only to recycle at the bottom of an RJ seniority list somewhere? This only perpetuates the notion that we will not just tolerate, but run, to these jobs.

3. How many of us have made an investment in this career, knowing that there was going to be a) low pay for a number of years, and b) a risk of little or very slow career progression?

4. How many of us are willing to look in the mirror and say that we are a part of the problem, for continuing to accept the low wages. Nobody is twisting our arms.

5. What ALPA is not acknowledging are two important points. First, the cost of learning to fly have skyrocketed. I finished all of my ratings between 1991 and 1994 for less than $16,000, and paid cash as I went. Second, there is indeed a pilot shortage, but not just on the professional side. There is shortage of people learning to fly just to learn to fly, and many of those--myself included--only later decided to go full bore for a career.

I admit that I have been lucky, as I hit the front end of the regional wave in the mid-90's, and I got hired a year ago at a legacy. But the truth is, we have all contributed to this issue.

And the truth is, there really is a pilot shortage, but it's across the board, not just in the professional ranks.

Just food for thought...

fosters

ALPA is to blame but it's the local union that is the problem. High pay for senior CAs who then throw the F/Os table scraps. The regional pay is modeled after the mainline carriers where one spends the majority of the time at >5 year pay, vs a regional where most is spent under that.

Moak was asked that very question in front of Congress yet he didn't have an answer for them, because there is no rhyme or reason except "greed".

Even the CA vs. F/O disparity bugs me at mainline but it's palatable due to the F/O pay being in the triple digits.

tom11011

This occurs for a handful of reasons.

First, the regional pilot group is unable to decide for themselves if regional airlines should even exist. I'm not saying they have to take action on a decision, but no collective voice has come out and said on behalf of pilots 'yes the B scale should exist' or 'no regionals need to be reabsorbed into their parent airlines, end the B scale'. There is no leadership in the regional airlines as it pertains to pilot issues. Regional pilots just flutter in the breeze, subject to the whim of the powers that be.

So lets say that pilots collectively do decide that regional airlines (B scale) should exist. Question number two is this- Should a pilot expect that he or she can make a career a the regional airline?

If the answer is yes, then Captains continue to make more at the expense of FO’s, but all FO’s have a shot at making a B scale career at the regional. You don’t want ALPA under this situation, you need an organization which truly represents your interests as a regional (B scale) pilot.

If the answer is no, then FO pay and Captain pay should be the same, flattened. Only longevity should pay higher. You are forced to move up to a major or out. Hopefully there is a flow through program and the better airlines will have this. You want ALPA representing your interests. If you have to start over at a new regional, at least you can make a livable wage.



In summary, the following points.

• Question #2 can never, ever be answered without first knowing the answer to question #1.
• FO pay could change tomorrow if your local union leadership says ok (not debating the merits of doing it, just that it could happen)
• I like Lee Moak, but he conveniently sweeps some stuff under the table such as the ability to move money around on the pay scales
• Having high FO pay is good for the pilot group as a whole. Imagine if you could decide to leave your airline right now, move across the country, and restart again at a new carrier for a starting livable wage. Would $40K be enough to start year 1?

Cubdriver

That list of FO salaries in Moak's fact sheet looks pretty accurate to me. You mean that was just propaganda? How so? Those are not the real FO salaries? What do you mean it's just propaganda that FOs make that much and the alleged pilot shortage has something to do with that? If you want to bash ALPA be my guest, but please use facts.

Agree, but at some point word will get out that the path through regionals to majors is not assured the way students and new recruits historically thought it was. In the meantime wages remain terrible at regionals and most flying careers end there. It is crazy to contemplate how long the present pilot labor market has been exploited on the basis of a remote hope of making it big, but it has and things should change. I think it is likely things will change.

When new pilots vote with their feet by not accepting historically low wages and choose another profession in lieu of flying altogther, a sea change of thinking will occur in the airline industry and salaries will be raised at regionals accordingly. Ticket prices will go up and the shortage will be solved when it occurs. But since there is no real pilot shortage yet at the majors or the regionals, it will not happen soon.

Rnav

I think most people agree with you on every point. I sure do... except that there is a pilot shortage. If there is more than one app sitting on a recruiters desk at a mainline carrier for each vacancy, then "yes" there would is a shortage. But with thousands of apps sitting waiting there is no shortage.

A shortage at the regional level doesn't mean crap. That's like saying there is a shortage of fast-food workers. That is not a liveable wage and neither is working at a regional as an FO.

IFLYACRJ

Right now Moak is blowing smoke up everyone's posterior.
This is an election year and he is out to get the vote at the regional level. Do you think he cares about the regionals? It's still the same old whipsaw game. He signed off on PSA's unnecessary concessionary agreement.
I'm not sure if they're having problems hiring or everyone is banging on the doors to go there to fly those shiny new jets. I've said this before, but at the regional level, CAs can make a livable wage and FOs can't. There's no reason an FO should have to work a second job on their days off.
If I was trying to get into this today, I doubt I'd be able to do it

tom11011

That is an excellent point and one that is overlooked. He is every bit as guilty at perpetuating this non-sense. Where was the leadership from Alpa national?