Originally Posted by OnCenterline

Gentlemen,

A few points to ponder

1. The president of ALPA (and I assume IBT) must sign each contract, which means that they not only endorse, but condone, low regional pay.

2. How many of us--myself included--have left or lost well-paying jobs, only to recycle at the bottom of an RJ seniority list somewhere? This only perpetuates the notion that we will not just tolerate, but run, to these jobs.

3. How many of us have made an investment in this career, knowing that there was going to be a) low pay for a number of years, and b) a risk of little or very slow career progression?

4. How many of us are willing to look in the mirror and say that we are a part of the problem, for continuing to accept the low wages. Nobody is twisting our arms.

5. What ALPA is not acknowledging are two important points. First, the cost of learning to fly have skyrocketed. I finished all of my ratings between 1991 and 1994 for less than $16,000, and paid cash as I went. Second, there is indeed a pilot shortage, but not just on the professional side. There is shortage of people learning to fly just to learn to fly, and many of those--myself included--only later decided to go full bore for a career.

I admit that I have been lucky, as I hit the front end of the regional wave in the mid-90's, and I got hired a year ago at a legacy. But the truth is, we have all contributed to this issue.

And the truth is, there really is a pilot shortage, but it's across the board, not just in the professional ranks.

Just food for thought...

Originally Posted by Kprc1

Here's a few questions.
1)How do you get the comapnies to increase FO pay? Especially first year pay.
2)Do you expect the new pilots to sit on the sidelines waiting for the increase?
3)Will senior CA's make concessions and give away a little from the top to balance out the bottom?
4)how do you stop this "Race to the bottom"?

My opinion is this; In all professions there is a starting point.
A mason, electrician, plumber and a carpenter started their profession as a "gopher" or day laborer to learn their trade.
Many corporate execs and individuals in business had to do an unpaid internship.
A good restaurant GM has worked his way up from even a dishwasher position.
I believe that this is just a "right of passage" as a first year FO. Would I like more money? Hell yes! Do I think it's fair to sign a 1 year or longer training contract at those wages? Hell NO! For now I'll just grind it out and wait my turn for the upgrade.

Originally Posted by Kprc1

...My opinion is this; In all professions there is a starting point.
A mason, electrician, plumber and a carpenter started their profession as a "gopher" or day laborer to learn their trade...

Originally Posted by CBreezy

First, a regional isn't a "starting point." It's typically the 3rd step for most people. Your analogy would be more appropriate if you looked at flight instructing or aerial survey as washing dishes and waiting tables. A first officer at an airline is an assistant manager of his airplane full of 70-80 people. The next step is manager.

Flight instructing, aerial mapping, jumper dumper, or any other part 91 flying is time building. After these 91 jobs not all go to a Regional. There are many good paying 135 jobs out there cargo and corporate.

If you want to believe first year pay is a "right of passage," you need to wake up to the realities of this industry. There are literally thousands of pilots who've had to do first year pay twice or even three times. When Comair folded, there were former 20 year CRJ-900 Captains flying the same aircraft, literally, for "intern" wages.

What if you never upgrade? What if you wake up one day and your company has started to downsize. It's 10 years later and you're still making less than 40k a year. It is easier to accept low wages when the future of high wages look so close and promising. Point being, there may be people reading this right now who will never see the left seat and your idea of intern wages hurts them most.

Originally Posted by Kprc1

Here's a few questions.
1)How do you get the comapnies to increase FO pay? Especially first year pay.
2)Do you expect the new pilots to sit on the sidelines waiting for the increase?
3)Will senior CA's make concessions and give away a little from the top to balance out the bottom?
4)how do you stop this "Race to the bottom"?

My opinion is this; In all professions there is a starting point.
A mason, electrician, plumber and a carpenter started their profession as a "gopher" or day laborer to learn their trade.
Many corporate execs and individuals in business had to do an unpaid internship.
A good restaurant GM has worked his way up from even a dishwasher position.
I believe that this is just a "right of passage" as a first year FO. Would I like more money? Hell yes! Do I think it's fair to sign a 1 year or longer training contract at those wages? Hell NO! For now I'll just grind it out and wait my turn for the upgrade.

Originally Posted by [B

minimwage4[/B];1696844]I think what you're saying is pilots(regional) fold like a cheap suit. Yes I agree. We are our own worst enemy. I think the reason why we are our own worst enemy is there's no unity. It's hard to have a sense of unity when your fellow regional pilots are your competitors for that major airline job. ALPA needs to create better opportunities to unite everyone, financially and career wise. Major airline pilots need to help as well, it starts by valuing regional crew, were not some pond scum that shuttles you from your base to your ranch after you've flown your 767(yes we see you hiding back there) We are all in this together.

Originally Posted by Kprc1

A good restaurant GM has worked his way up from even a dishwasher position.

Originally Posted by minimwage4

I think what you're saying is pilots(regional) fold like a cheap suit. Yes I agree. We are our own worst enemy.

Originally Posted by bedrock

One of the union reps for Eagle (an outgoing rep, I believe, summed up in a statement that the major airlines have become addicted to low wage regionals. Addicts will lie right to your face, because their addiction is stronger than any other process including morality and logic. I think that analogy fits well here. We all know what is required to attract pilots, pay and better working conditions.

It is infuriating, that ALPA doesn't release these statements somewhere they will be read, like in a major publication. Just publish the first yr pay figures AND 4 yr figures, training costs, and quotes about pilot shortage. Then simply say "Any wonder there is a shortage". But MOAK gets 500k/ yr, so I guess there's no money for effective PR.