groovinaviator

Maybe this belongs in the majors forum, but I'm a regional pilot so i'll post here. I am sitting at FLL right now trying to get back to ORF. Me and 2 other pilots were just denied boarding on a 767-400ER because of Delta's rule on jumpseating. Apparently Delta only allows one offline jumpseater on each flight... even though there were almost 30 open seats in the back. I found this to be very frustrating. Fortunately there was a flight through CLT to ORF just one terminal over in UsAirways, but there is still a fundamental problem in that Delta pilots are still more than willing to jumpseat on us even if we already have one.

First, this is not a an issue with the pilots and I do not hold pilots responsible for this at all. I want to reinforce that I appreciate the whole jumpseat system and don't take it for granted, but something must change. I do not think it is fair that they limit their jumpseats to us, but we do not treat them the same way.

A JetBlue pilot who was also denied proposed this... He said that the only way to solve the problem is to start denying Delta pilots our jumpseats. I am not sure how many Delta pilots jump on other airlines, but this could be effective. I really don't want to be that guy (nor do I have the authority to be as I am hust a lowly FO), but I know most captains I fly with do everything they can to get everyone on board... not leave with 3 pilots in the terminal and 30 open seats in the back.

1. Is this an ethical/fair plan?
2. Would it be effective or just cause Delta to revoke all offline jumpseats?
3. Has anyone else had this problem?
4. Are there any other ways to solve the problem?

Please answer these questions or share any other CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts... let's keep this thread on topic as I feel it is an important issue.


Thanks for your time-

bintynogin

I have the same problem with Northwest. They have the same stupid rule. They only allow 4 jumpseaters at a time. I was trying to get on a 757 that was almost empty and they wouldnt let me one because they already had 4 guys in the back... Knowing NWA they probably didnt want to give away more than 4 free cans Soda. Thats the only reason I think they have that rule but if you talk to the pilots they will probably let you on. Starting a jumpseat war wouldnt solve the problem only make it worst.

G2TT

Starting to deny Delta pilots your jumpseat because you are upset at their rules is not a good solution. It is not the pilot's fault the gate agent said no. What incentive is there for them to change their jumpseat policy if they start getting denied at other places? I think you need to welcome them on and ask them questions about their policy. Also, talk to your own jumpseat coordinator. A jumpseat war is not the answer.

p.s. If you can get there early enough to talk to the crew before they get on the airplane (Delta or NW) the problem is usually solved. The pilots generally won't leave you if they know you are there.

CactusCrew

Sorry Groovin,

I can feel your pain, but have no sympathy.

I don't know how far back your memory goes, but it wasn't THAT long ago that Deltas jumpseats were off limits to EVERYONE except their own.

So they have made progress, give it time.

1. No
2. Not effective.
3. Probably
4. Yes

The only CONSTRUCTIVE way to accomplish this is to discuss it with a DAL pilot asking for a jumpseat from you. Just EMPHASIZE the fact that he is being allowed on board, even though you may already have a jumpseater. And that it would be nice, if they would reciprocate in kind.

Hopefully a real DAL pilot can give you more insight about the history of their jumpseat ownership issues over the years.

Later, CC

FlyerJosh

I have no problem with RECIPROCAL jumpseating rights. IMHO, you're not starting a jumpseat war if you offer the same rights to other carriers as they offer your company's pilots.

Many carriers have an open seat, open jumpseat policy. Amongst themselves, they should offer the same agreement. However, why should these carriers offer any additional benefits to carriers that don't do so?

Delta only allows one jumpseater. Okay, so for delta jumpseaters on airline XYZ (that offers open seat open jumpseat), there should only be one jumpseat. Not a war, not a denial, but simply RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT.

I guarantee you that if NWA and DAL pilots started being inconvenienced there would be more pressure from within their pilot group to get the rule changed. It's all fine and dandy to talk with your jumpseaters and request reciprocal rights, but you know what? As soon as they get off the plane, they could care less. ALPA participation already sucks when it comes to IMPORTANT issues like contract votes and leadership elections. What makes you think it will be even close to that when it comes to side issues like jumpseating?

Policy like this has to come from the TOP down though (via the jumpseat committee), and has to be company wide policy. Having individual flight crews deny jumpseats because they were previously denied is bad form and not the proper action to take.

My recommendation is to contact your company's jumpseat coordinator and let him/her know your experience. The more peope that complain about these policies (from both airlines), the more likely something will change. (Either DAL/NWA will open their cabins, or your company's policy will change to reflect their unwillingness to do so).

freezingflyboy

Agree completely, Josh just beat me to it. If you've already taken one jumpseater and a Delta guy wants on, explain to him that you already have one jumpseater and are just mirroring the Delta policy. That guy will have plenty of time to think about it and make a call to HIS (Delta) jumpseat coordinator while he waits for the next flight. If a Delta guy gives you a hardluck story about getting home for his kid's birthday or anniversary or something I'd let him sweat it a little bit and then let him on. I'm not totally heartless and he might appreciate it enough to make a call to his JS coordinator.

RedeyeAV8r

I disagree completely..........You haven't been in this industry all that long have you?
It wasn't too long in the past when no one offered recipricol jumpseats.
It was the Pilots of Eastern that were the first to open up their Jumpseats to the rest of us when each of our own companies did not offer recipricol rights.

The next few years garnerd airline contracts that had recipricol Jumpseats.

American and Delta were the last hold outs. I remember letting some American and Delta pilots jumpseat when they didn't offer it to us. I told them
just make sure you get this in your next contract. It took a few years but it happened.........

The problem is when there are more jumpseaters than seats........then the CPAT has a choice to make. It ususally goes to 1st come first serve with carriers that offer reciprical rights.....I'll take anyone who isn't on a certain Blacklist.

If there are more Pilots than seats, (in my case) it goes by ALPA date of Hire

freezingflyboy

So you're saying that because almost 20 years ago there were no reciprocal jumpseats we should be happy for what we have now? It's better now than it was so we should just leave it? If everyone had that attitude, nothing would ever improve.

This is how I see it: if my airline will take as many of their (Delta) butts as there are seats then I would expect the same courtesy from that other airline (Delta, NWA, CAL, etc). If they will only take one of our butts regardless of how many seats they have, then I will only take one of their butts. Its not unfair, just a reciprocal agreement. If the Delta guys are unhappy with MY (one airplane, one flight) policy then I will explain to them that it is no different from their policy and I would be more than happy to change my policy as soon as they change theirs (hundreds of airplanes, thousands of flights).

RedeyeAV8r

[QUOTE=freezingflyboy;100445]So you're saying that because almost 20 years ago there were no reciprocal jumpseats we should be happy for what we have now? It's better now than it was so we should just leave it? If everyone had that attitude, nothing would ever improve. QUOTE]

What I am saying my shortsighted friend (The Old Bull young Bull on a hilltop story comes to mind)............is that 20 years ago, the Eastern Pilots were forward looking enough to Open up their Jumpseats to Offline folks even when none of the Offline folks could do the same. Eastern Pilots let the rest of the Industry ride their Jumpseats when none of us could pay them back!!

Fast forward a few years. Using your Logic, we probably would not have reciprical jumpseat agreements on Delta or AMR jumpseats because they were the last 2 hold outs when the Industry opend up their Jumpseats to offline Pilots. Many of us were forward thinking enough ( Remembered what Eastern Pilots did) to allow AMR and Delta Pilots ride with us even though they couldn't pay us back. Once the word got out and more and more AMR and Delta folks started seeing what a great benefit is was.......wah Lah their jumpseats opened up and now we have reciprocity. Would you rather we not have Delta and AMR allow you to ride at all? Give it time things will improve.........Rome wasn't built in a day!

Using your logic, The Eastern Pilots should not have done that in the first place......because none of the riders Companies allowed reciprical rights.......If that was their attitude where would the Jumpseat program be today?

Also remember, the Jumpseat is a Professional Courtesy not a right! It is always at the Capt's discreation regardless.

RedeyeAV8r

SInce you are the FO (assuming from your Avtar) you probably have little say anyway. If I were you I would look at it this way. In these upcoming hiring times at the Legacys, it seems more and more Important to have Internal recommendations. The more Legacy pilots who ride with you is more opportunity to get acquainted and open up a network to you. You never know who will sit on the interview board at UAL, AMR, NWA, CAL or DAL............or FedEX. Wouldn't you just love to show up to your interview and see that CAPT who's A$$ you saved by letting him/her ride on your jumpseat sitting across from you...................................or would you prefer to see him/her sitting across from you when he/she got a letter in his file because he missed a trip because you didn't let him ride? Your choice.