RALPA....it's time!
10-17-2014, 08:19 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by bonesbrigade
Two major issues:
1. Many of the servces that ALPA provides are so expensive that no independant union could afford them, such as legal council, negotiating council, medical services, HIMS, etc. Many large independent unions such as the APA contract these services out from ALPA for a hefty fee.
2. I'm not ure about other regionals, but Endeavor's JBCA-TA has language in the contract that says if Endeavor pilots dump ALPA, then Endeavor loses their flying.
#2 is the most fudged up thing that I've ever heard in my life... a trade "union" included language in their membership's contract that says "if you get rid of us then you lose everything". Doesn't sit right in my tummy.
THose things being said, I am all for a RALPH.
1. Many of the servces that ALPA provides are so expensive that no independant union could afford them, such as legal council, negotiating council, medical services, HIMS, etc. Many large independent unions such as the APA contract these services out from ALPA for a hefty fee.
2. I'm not ure about other regionals, but Endeavor's JBCA-TA has language in the contract that says if Endeavor pilots dump ALPA, then Endeavor loses their flying.
#2 is the most fudged up thing that I've ever heard in my life... a trade "union" included language in their membership's contract that says "if you get rid of us then you lose everything". Doesn't sit right in my tummy.
THose things being said, I am all for a RALPH.
10-17-2014, 08:26 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by Redbird611
Tell me how RALPA will stop pilot groups from undercutting each other for a faster path out of the regionals. Until that problem is solved I don't see any point in changing the acronym of the association my dues go to.
10-17-2014, 09:10 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 539
Originally Posted by Brand X
You guys need to bargain to make the regionals a truly viable career destination for civilian pilots.
Can't do it when few intend to stay for a career. The career regionals lose contracts and shrink while pilots flock to the newer airline with low pay scales that wins that flying. So long as career advancement is valued more than current compensation we will perpetually be played against each other. The only true solution is to bring the bulk of the flying back to the career airlines. That will take a significant effort by the unions at the career airlines and they have other things they'd prefer to negotiate for.
10-17-2014, 09:18 AM
#14
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by Brand X
You guys need to bargain to make the regionals a truly viable career destination for civilian pilots.
Originally Posted by Redbird611
Can't do it when few intend to stay for a career. The career regionals lose contracts and shrink while pilots flock to the newer airline with low pay scales that wins that flying. So long as career advancement is valued more than current compensation we will perpetually be played against each other. The only true solution is to bring the bulk of the flying back to the career airlines. That will take a significant effort by the unions at the career airlines and they have other things they'd prefer to negotiate for.
10-17-2014, 09:24 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 455
Originally Posted by Joecool3
Regional Airline Pilots Association ...RALPA!
"We have nothing to fear,nothing to lose by breaking away from ALPA. Yes Republic, Silver and GoJet are with IBT union but we can start off as an independent association funded apart from ALPA. All it takes is commitment and the desire to say I'm tired of being fed crumbs and fluff. The dream, " hey do not worry,just pay your dues and all the Major airline pilots will be retiring in the next decade"! Is a trick because Most jet regional pilots fly the same routes, work professionally and safely but to the delight of Major Airline Management, this labor force is cheap. We are flying a CRJ 900 from CLT to DFW and then that same cheap labor will refuel and continue to LAX in said aircraft rather that a 737 or Airbus. It is not in the interest of Major Airline Management to have a large payroll of pilots flying domestic routes with their carriers. There will always be outsourced feed which the Regional Airline Pilots Association must see that it's members needs meet.
Many of us will remain Regional Pilots and yet some may be fortunate to leave to greener pastures. Yet it is in our interest to bypass ALPA and achieve political power for ourself. Every journey starts with the first step. Still pay your ALPA dues but Ladies and Gents, it's time to place a dollar a month aside for your own association. RALPA
"We have nothing to fear,nothing to lose by breaking away from ALPA. Yes Republic, Silver and GoJet are with IBT union but we can start off as an independent association funded apart from ALPA. All it takes is commitment and the desire to say I'm tired of being fed crumbs and fluff. The dream, " hey do not worry,just pay your dues and all the Major airline pilots will be retiring in the next decade"! Is a trick because Most jet regional pilots fly the same routes, work professionally and safely but to the delight of Major Airline Management, this labor force is cheap. We are flying a CRJ 900 from CLT to DFW and then that same cheap labor will refuel and continue to LAX in said aircraft rather that a 737 or Airbus. It is not in the interest of Major Airline Management to have a large payroll of pilots flying domestic routes with their carriers. There will always be outsourced feed which the Regional Airline Pilots Association must see that it's members needs meet.
Many of us will remain Regional Pilots and yet some may be fortunate to leave to greener pastures. Yet it is in our interest to bypass ALPA and achieve political power for ourself. Every journey starts with the first step. Still pay your ALPA dues but Ladies and Gents, it's time to place a dollar a month aside for your own association. RALPA
10-17-2014, 09:55 AM
#16
"Yinzer an'at"
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: Sittin at the puter
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by Brand X
You are WRONG.
Harvey Watt will supply AeroMedical services for minimal cost on a per pilot basis.
Independent Legal with extensive RLA experience is available at reasonable cost.
HIMS meetings and training are open to other groups. APA attends ALPA HIMS training
APA Contracts NOTHING out to ALPA.
I love everyone! I love to be around some people, I love to stay away from others, and some I'd just love to punch right in the face!
10-17-2014, 11:36 AM
#17
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Another alternative is to create a RALPA within ALPA. Just like the Canadian pilots are ALPA but have their own governing board and independent president and budget. I submitted a resolution at my local council to make this a reality. My rep said that it has been included in the Board of Directors meeting agenda which starts on Monday. Please call your reps and ask them to support such an idea.
10-17-2014, 01:17 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: EMB 145/CRJ 200/700/900
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Nevets
Another alternative is to create a RALPA within ALPA. Just like the Canadian pilots are ALPA but have their own governing board and independent president and budget. I submitted a resolution at my local council to make this a reality. My rep said that it has been included in the Board of Directors meeting agenda which starts on Monday. Please call your reps and ask them to support such an idea.
10-17-2014, 01:23 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: EMB 145/CRJ 200/700/900
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by 24/48
The above statement in bold is the crux of the problem, but not just with ALPA. You are flying the crumbs dished out via scope from the major carriers. Until you fly your own code nothing will change, RALPA or ALPA. In fact, by going RALPA you alleviate ALPA of any DFR when it comes to scope, so please by all means do not let the door hit you in the six!
10-17-2014, 02:21 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 360
As bad as ALPA is for RJ pilots, it's the best of the bad options. For starters, look at the process for decertifying ALPA--it's deliberately difficult. Yes, USAir did it, but they had a very unifying cause in the Nicolau award to rally around, even though ALPA wasn't to blame. Further, for an R-ALPA to work, you'd have to ensure that every non-major would vote to decertify, essentially at the same time.
Second, in spite of Brand X's assertion that it would be easy to duplicate what ALPA does, the truth is, it won't be, and it won't be cheap. To wit, look at the recent vote by jetBlue. There was a strong push to go with an in-house union there, and one of the issues was cost. Granted, JB only had 2500 pilots at the time, but they all make more than regional pilots. If you had half the pilots making $100/hr x 1000 hours and half making $60 x 1000 hours, you'd have an annual dues revenue of $4,000,000 (assuming a 2% take). Out of that would have to come rent, insurance (corporate liability), assorted overhead costs...and that doesn't include full time employees, full time lawyers, a salaried President, a salaried VP and at least one salaried #3, and status reps, who would need to be pay-protected for lost time. Now, if all the regionals bailed at once, you might be able to double or triple the revenue, but I have no idea what those payroll values are. Cost was a major reason CAL rejoined ALPA.
Third, as was previously mentioned, you need career pilots, because you need people that are invested in the outcome. With so many pilots trying to get out, it will be hard to maintain continuity in leadership/management. Further, too many regional pilots just want to avoid rocking the boat so that they can get out....and that leaves senior pilots not only in charge, but driving the agenda.
Fourth, your airlines would have a field day testing out the resolve of a new union. At least today, they know what battles they can win. Imagine how slow the company would be to start turning over the dues money to a new union.
Fifth, don't discount what ALPA would do in retaliation. Most pilots aren't aware of the RJDC settlement (if you don't know what the RJDC is, do some research), which states that the major airline MEC is obligated to share its scope bargaining strategy with any ALPA regional that will be negatively affected. That allows--in theory--the regional to become a partner to the negotiations for DFR and job protection. It's obviously up to the regional MEC to enforce this, but the provision is there. If you vote out ALPA, ALPA will in turn do everything they can to hose you over even more--and win. Why? Because they have the resources and the power to do so. ALPA would only need to hold onto one regional, and those pilots would suddenly be getting super-preferential interviews/hiring via the major airline CBA's just to get revenge.
Finally, don't forget about the political side of things. The ALPA PAC would be able to grossly outspend a regional PAC, especially a new one, and that could lead to some negative ramifications. (Politics is also why the Canadian pilots have their own "office" within ALPA. Canadian labor law is different.)
Think of the sour regional/ALPA relationship as a bad marriage with money. If you're married to a rich person who's paying your bills and giving you some spending money, you can tolerate some philandering and embarrassment in exchange for the financial protection, at least until a better rich person comes along. The RJ pilots don't have a better rich person yet.
The better solution, working within ALPA, is for the regionals to try and force ALPA to adopt a bicameral BOD that would work like the two Houses of Congress: one "chamber" would be based on the size of the airline, and each would get so many reps, like the House of Representatives; one "chamber" would be based on the number of airlines, with each getting a single rep, like the Senate. When a policy is formulated in one chamber, it would not be allowed to go to the entire group or President until both chambers reconcile the language/policy. The current grouping practice needs to be replaced.
I don't enough about the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws or parliamentary procedure to know how this could be done, but it would be a better solution than trying to break away or start a new union, as it would keep all of the pilots in one union, and would force the union to truly represent the best interests of everyone.
And bear in mind that none of this address the most pressing problem of pilots willing to bargain against each other at lower prices to get the flying.
Second, in spite of Brand X's assertion that it would be easy to duplicate what ALPA does, the truth is, it won't be, and it won't be cheap. To wit, look at the recent vote by jetBlue. There was a strong push to go with an in-house union there, and one of the issues was cost. Granted, JB only had 2500 pilots at the time, but they all make more than regional pilots. If you had half the pilots making $100/hr x 1000 hours and half making $60 x 1000 hours, you'd have an annual dues revenue of $4,000,000 (assuming a 2% take). Out of that would have to come rent, insurance (corporate liability), assorted overhead costs...and that doesn't include full time employees, full time lawyers, a salaried President, a salaried VP and at least one salaried #3, and status reps, who would need to be pay-protected for lost time. Now, if all the regionals bailed at once, you might be able to double or triple the revenue, but I have no idea what those payroll values are. Cost was a major reason CAL rejoined ALPA.
Third, as was previously mentioned, you need career pilots, because you need people that are invested in the outcome. With so many pilots trying to get out, it will be hard to maintain continuity in leadership/management. Further, too many regional pilots just want to avoid rocking the boat so that they can get out....and that leaves senior pilots not only in charge, but driving the agenda.
Fourth, your airlines would have a field day testing out the resolve of a new union. At least today, they know what battles they can win. Imagine how slow the company would be to start turning over the dues money to a new union.
Fifth, don't discount what ALPA would do in retaliation. Most pilots aren't aware of the RJDC settlement (if you don't know what the RJDC is, do some research), which states that the major airline MEC is obligated to share its scope bargaining strategy with any ALPA regional that will be negatively affected. That allows--in theory--the regional to become a partner to the negotiations for DFR and job protection. It's obviously up to the regional MEC to enforce this, but the provision is there. If you vote out ALPA, ALPA will in turn do everything they can to hose you over even more--and win. Why? Because they have the resources and the power to do so. ALPA would only need to hold onto one regional, and those pilots would suddenly be getting super-preferential interviews/hiring via the major airline CBA's just to get revenge.
Finally, don't forget about the political side of things. The ALPA PAC would be able to grossly outspend a regional PAC, especially a new one, and that could lead to some negative ramifications. (Politics is also why the Canadian pilots have their own "office" within ALPA. Canadian labor law is different.)
Think of the sour regional/ALPA relationship as a bad marriage with money. If you're married to a rich person who's paying your bills and giving you some spending money, you can tolerate some philandering and embarrassment in exchange for the financial protection, at least until a better rich person comes along. The RJ pilots don't have a better rich person yet.
The better solution, working within ALPA, is for the regionals to try and force ALPA to adopt a bicameral BOD that would work like the two Houses of Congress: one "chamber" would be based on the size of the airline, and each would get so many reps, like the House of Representatives; one "chamber" would be based on the number of airlines, with each getting a single rep, like the Senate. When a policy is formulated in one chamber, it would not be allowed to go to the entire group or President until both chambers reconcile the language/policy. The current grouping practice needs to be replaced.
I don't enough about the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws or parliamentary procedure to know how this could be done, but it would be a better solution than trying to break away or start a new union, as it would keep all of the pilots in one union, and would force the union to truly represent the best interests of everyone.
And bear in mind that none of this address the most pressing problem of pilots willing to bargain against each other at lower prices to get the flying.
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