Quickest flow to American?
 

Which of the 3 AAG wholly owned has the quickest flow to American? I have a few pilots I'm mentoring right now and they're interested on what's being offered.

Piedmont definitely has the strongest flow

The flows appear to be set up to roughly equal out between the AAG wholly owned carriers as time progresses. Right now Envoy has the best numbers (even with management's screwing with it), but those numbers are set to decline per our contract. PDT's looks good, but has fewer flows. Theirs is set to increase.

Whatever choice they make, don't count on the flow.

Exactly this!

If I were mentoring pilots at this point, I would recommend Endeavor as a first step. Work there at a decent wage until you have about 800hrs 121 and then move to whatever company has the shortest upgrade at that time. It will take 18-24 months to accrue 1000hr 121 time, why spend anymore of that time at poverty wages than you have to?

Using a flow or any incentive that is more than 2-3 years in the future in the airline industry is poor career planning.

Career progression is currently similar at all the regionals therefor choose an airline based on Domicile, Pay/work rules, and lifestyle/commute.

Why risk a 2 leg commute to a low paid regional for a flow that may or may not be available after the 8+ years it will take you to reach it?

I think the last two posts offer the best advice. Better to focus on present tangibles, then future hypotheticals. Especially at Regional Airlines who function at the whim of those they serve.

I think the posters hit it on the head. Work on building your qualifications that will make you competitive for jobs and not focus on a flow.


If the flow goes away and you have zero qualifications you will get stuck.

A flow is an insurance policy, nothing more. We all have house, health, and life insurance so why not have a legacy airline insurance too? You might never get an interview at AA on your own and if you do you very well might not get hired and have to settle for an LCC or being a regional lifer. The flow at all 3 will be about the same for someone hired today so go the place with the easiest commute and work on getting hired at another legacy until you flow. I know the common thought is that everyone will get a legacy job in the next 10 years but that is not the reality, many will not get an interview or get the TBNT and be stuck on the outside. There are a lot of people at Delta UAL and AA that now have a job because of a flow that woud have never been hired otherwise.

Quickest flow to AA? In no particular order I would say USAF, Navy, USMC.

Said that once many moons ago in another thread and was ripped to shreds. But still do agree..

The AA recruiter I talked to recently was really excited that they can start hiring military guys OTS again now that the recalls are coming to an end.

Amen to this. Same can be said for all the other big league companies.

It makes sense...I mean, after all, the flying they've been doing for the last 10+ years seems much more suited to the kind of flying they would be doing at a legacy 121 carrier. Right?

Much more so than the flying we've been doing at the regionals...you know, flying their passengers, in jets that just straddle the line between regional and mainline aircraft.

Fixed it ;)

Hands down. Envoy. The best flow rates and percentages in the business. If you are hired today at Envoy, you can expect to be sitting in the right seat at AA in 6 years or less.

PDT has a good flow, but not nearly as good and solid as Envoy.

In order for PDT's flow to increase, they have to get new hires. If folks stop showing up for class, the flow doesn't increase. It's actual a pretty smart way for AAG to ensure they always have staffing at PDT.

Envoy's flow is set by the contract. They'll be flowing 30, 25, and then 15 per month for years regardless of how many folks show up for class.


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^^^^^^^^^^^ Ric!

Is it? How long is the military commitment? 8-10-12 years? My money says a 21 year old civilian will beat a military guy.(to the airlines)

This post brought to you by theonion.com.

Envoy's flow is 16 years today, what the he|| are you talking about? By the way, welcome to APC.

To the original poster, with the exception of this new guy who doesn't know what he is talking about, everyone elses advice is this thread is spot on, I recommend you follow it.

With a lot less pain and suffering though and maybe even a pension. Unless you get shot down, then yeah maybe contract airline is the way to go.

Air National Guard is part time.


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Seems like every military pilot I fly with has ZERO trouble getting a class date at AA or other Legacy. The network is strong for these guys and gals and they don't have any ALPA stink on em. Tell them to go military!

A 21 year old civilian who chooses to go both Guard/Reserves and Regionals will beat everyone to the Majors.

Active duty comes with the ass pain of an 8-10 year commitment and the regionals come with the ass pain of... well flying for the regionals.

If I were a young guy with sights on the Majors I'd get the military stink on me at the Guard/Reserves and the 121 stink on me at the Regionals.

PDT is basing all their growth off our old worn out, high time, soon to be retired E145's from Envoy, we already have mothballed a whole fleet of them in the desert.. 50 seaters are going away in the regional world if you haven't noticed. Just like how the 19-34 seat turboprops I started flying at the regionals died off. I have thousands of hours in those very 145's going to PDT, they are clapped out uncomfortable old pieces of junk that the customers hate to fly on. I sure wouldn't want to bet my future plans on that recipe for disaster at PDT working out for them long term...

I've been struggling in between corporate and regionals. If I go regional I'm going with Endeavor. Yeah, it might be a little commute but the wages definitely do it for me for right now in life hands down. I can't afford to live at most regionals first year pay. A year doesn't sound like much overall but it's still a year trying to do a second job on top of flying for a regional. Endeavor looks pretty solid......

I don't think the plan is worn out 145's for their future:rolleyes:

What's the upgrade at Endeavor? Right now at Piedmont if you have the time you can finish training and go right to Captain. So the 2nd year pay would be a big boost.

If Endeavor gives you a better commute or the ability to live in base then by all means go there.

Obviously Parker wants to hire a bunch of pilots, transition the company to jets with a minimum of 20 e145s, let them and the dashes cycle out. Close the doors at PDT. And sign some more expensive long term contracts with AWAC and RAH:D::rolleyes:

bit bitter aren't we?

Whats the upgrade time at PDT vs envoy?

Good Luck!

But this brings up another question since most of Envoy's "old worn out, high-time, clapped out uncomfortable, pieces of junk" won't be going to PDT, what then does that mean for Envoy ? So far, there really are no replacements scheduled for those aircraft as 40 E-175's won't do it and even if the 90 options could or would be executed, that leaves Envoy only 2/3's of present size.

Seems to me like all the AAG WO Regionals have a similar issue. Of course, consolidation with each other or outsiders ready to flop might solve that, but in that case, all the happy campers of the future AAG WO world will have to plan on share and share alike in upgrades and flow, just as mainline LAA and LUS will soon be doing among what is on the table there.

Just something to consider anyway.............

[QUOTE=RyanP;2070281]PDT is basing all their growth off our old worn out, high time, soon to be retired E145's from Envoy, we already have mothballed a whole fleet of them in the desert.. 50 seaters are going away in the regional world if you haven't noticed. Just like how the 19-34 seat turboprops I started flying at the regionals died off. I have thousands of hours in those very 145's going to PDT, they are clapped out uncomfortable old pieces of junk that the customers hate to fly on. I sure wouldn't want to bet my future plans on that recipe for disaster at PDT working out for them long term...[/QUOTE

There is a strong market for those 50 seat jets where we fly. If there wasn't C5 wouldn't be doing the very same thing. I'd worry more about your own dumpster fire at Envoy first. Shiny new jets don't appeal to everyone when, by your own pilots admission, everything else sucks there.

I am in the same boat. I am trying to figure out if I can afford to make the jump.

[QUOTE=Lvlng4Spd;2070435] Safe to say misery loves company.:D

Ok.. Good luck with a new fleet of old worn out pieces of crap and nothing new coming in. No orders, no options.... Doesn't sound like a stable promising platform for a new hire looking ahead at Least 6 yrs to flow. Not that shltvoy is any better really.

Earlier poster said it best. Join a guard unit for the sure thing and absolute fastest path to a Legacy.

I'd say Endeavor is your best choice right now.

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...psam2dqy7p.png

Here's the data used for the graph.

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...pslgi8gjak.png

http://s9.postimg.org/69u3yra7j/1210...99704331_n.jpg

These graphs don't tell the whole story. I'm all for all that extra money, but if it means you have to be at a contract airline 5 years longer because it takes longer to upgrade or some other circumstance, then your total compensation in pay and benefits will not be high as someone who went to the major leagues 5 years before you. At age 65, those extra 5 years in the big leagues probably means a million dollars extra.

Hindsight will always be 20/20. When one is 65, then and only then, will one know which path was best when it came to that 5 years of compensation.

This, along with "Living the dream!", is way too overused. Stop.