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Old 06-15-2016 | 04:21 PM
  #41  
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I love the armchair QBing here. Sounds like the crew had two alternates already, and at point in time, FSM was the best alternate when they couldn't make it to XNA. Plus the fact that RJ's are always weight restricted when on a short flight. (I don't which RJ it was) You can't just load up tons of fuel.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 04:29 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by gojo
Not armchair quarterbacking at all. It's a reg that 121 operators land with 45 minutes of fuel. If you can't do it because of weather find something that works. Sure as h&ll don't opt for an unapproved airport without Arff
When you are the Captain you get to make that call. Obviously the crew did what they thought was SAFEST. Safety is our first goal. PERIOD. Good on the crew for making a SAFE decision. Nothing else here matters. Make tuff safety decisions is why we make the big bucks.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 04:36 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by gojo
Not armchair quarterbacking at all. It's a reg that 121 operators land with 45 minutes of fuel. If you can't do it because of weather find something that works. Sure as h&ll don't opt for an unapproved airport without Arff
It's only a reg to PLAN to land with 45 minutes of fuel. You can burn into it. At my outfit, we're required to declare an emergency when landing with less than 30 minutes of fuel. Don't know if they declared an emergency, but under emergency authority, you can land wherever you want.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Aviatrx
When you are the Captain you get to make that call. Obviously the crew did what they thought was SAFEST. Safety is our first goal. PERIOD. Good on the crew for making a SAFE decision. Nothing else here matters. Make tuff safety decisions is why we make the big bucks.
I'm not following your logic. They opted to go below min fuel, then did the safest thing, which was land at an unapproved field? Ugh, you're right then. Maybe there's no need for an ASAP form then either.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 04:51 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by gojo
It's a reg that 121 operators land with 45 minutes of fuel.
And what reg is that? 121 flights have to CARRY a 45 minute reserve beyond the most distant planned alternate, but there's nothing that says they have to LAND with that reserve. After all, it's there so that unforeseen circumstances that arise after the flight has already been dispatched don't result in a disaster. AKA, exactly this situation.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by echelon
And what reg is that? 121 flights have to CARRY a 45 minute reserve beyond the most distant planned alternate, but there's nothing that says they have to LAND with that reserve. After all, it's there so that unforeseen circumstances that arise after the flight has already been dispatched don't result in a disaster. AKA, exactly this situation.
These perfect Captains in here throwing stones are idiots and hypocrites. The crew elected to not land at the second alternate because of windsheer and they are getting crucified for it here. Has anyone here flown in Tejas? It's not the NE where you could hit a hub or former hub within 20 minutes of your location. You get stuck behind a line in Texas and you may HAVE to land at an offline airport. I know at my airline for a long time if a line developed and you got on the wrong side of it going to IAH, you could choose between SAT and OKC. During TS season, neither of those are "reliable" and that's why you bring extra fuel.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 05:16 PM
  #47  
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I've had my share TX flying. Even when bringing extra fuel, ATC decides to re-route you in the middle of flight, and storms are everywhere, you need to make PIC decisions. Good on the crew. I agree, don't throw stones, especially if you haven't experienced it yourself.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 05:38 PM
  #48  
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Never let it be said that pilots don't have an over-inflated egos and delusions of self-worth. This thread proves it.
Methinks some of you could do with a few more decades of experience. And a little more humility.
The crew found themselves in a box, through whatever chain of events. They found a way to get out of the box, and they, and the airplane, will fly again. There will be things to learn from this for all the parties involved, and hopefully we'll get to read it ourselves, and file away a few nuggets for our toolbox.
As for the "This would NEVER happen to me!" mentality, you're idiots.

One of my greatest apprehensions about the newer folks entering this field is that most have come from an extremely structured environment that is relatively low-risk. I did not come from there. This safer environment with its lack of incidents can be mistaken for superior judgement and skills. Don't fall into that trap. There is much risk here, and if you think you're too smart/skilled to fall for it, that's the first threat.

I've known some very good pilots who aren't here anymore, it could always happen to you. Fly safe & fly humble.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 06:09 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by gojo
We're you guys awake in ground school when discussing CRM/TEM? If so you probably analyzed situations like this yourself. Once the threat was identified (unforcasted weather) did they do the best thing? I think not. Especially if the considered the amount of gas they had on board. Was any CRM done outside of the flight deck? They train to identify and break the error chain as soon as possible. In this case they put themselves in an emergency fuel situation and had to land at a NON APPROVED airport. Fine if you're on fire, but should never be used like this.
Some real clowns on this forum.

If your that scared to land at a "NON APPROVED" airport, and your own experience with CRM is listening in class to training on the subject. It sounds like you might need some more experience before you ever get into a situation which dictates you actually make a decision.

Please tell us what they should have done, since they didn't do the "best thing".

What exactly would you have done differently? Because you never actually mentioned that.

Utilized resources outside the flight deck? ATC/dispatch? I'm sure they were in communication.

Sounds like you would be smoldering somewhere babbling all the way down about the need to break the error chain.


...BTW also not a reg that you have to land with 45 minutes of fuel.
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Old 06-15-2016 | 06:20 PM
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AA Chief Pilot years ago talking to new Captains - if you've got a problem and you call me from the ground you've done ok.
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