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B-17/P-63 Collision

Old 11-13-2022, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by hopp View Post
Crazy abrupt vertical move by the Cobra at the last second, Reminiscent of the Mustang crash at Reno, where he lost elevator control. Still they were too close. What was the Air Boss doing?
That was what came to my mind, warbirds don't have the same certification or redundancy as modern airplanes. Might have been a mechanical.

Also why do form flying anywhere near non-participants? Yes I'm second guessing but in addition to the tragic loss of life this crash destroyed an irreplaceable historical piece, and traumatized folks in the audience who were there to celebrate veterans and aviation. Including kids and some vets who have already had enough trauma.

If they can't fly large warbirds safely, I'd rather they keep them in museums.
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Old 11-13-2022, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hopp View Post
Crazy abrupt vertical move by the Cobra at the last second, Reminiscent of the Mustang crash at Reno, where he lost elevator control. Still they were too close. What was the Air Boss doing?
Depends. An air boss is required for a waivered activity during an "air show", as in something that requires waiving of certain 14 CFR regulations, such as aerobatic altitudes, etc. But just over-flying doesn't necessarily need any waiver and therefore no airboss or the more strict rules/organizing that accompany. That said, most good air-show orgs will run the entire event like the waivered portion.
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Old 11-13-2022, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
If they can't fly large warbirds safely, I'd rather they keep them in museums.
Had a grandmother lived life full until 98. A Rosie on the line at Bell in Buffalo NY where the P39 Airacobra/P63 Kingcobra rolled out. Stuck a snapshot in a birthday card of a static display hangered at Chino, CA. I said "that's some barrel under the spinner." She answered matter-of-factly as with everything else in her time; "oh, the cannon." Mentioned more than once all the great parties 'Larry' would throw for the gang. Also how often co. pilots bought it, proving & testing. Crazy this happens so long after. Sad never ages.
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Old 11-13-2022, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Profane Kahuna View Post
Pretty sure the B-17 got hit by the P-63, not the way you make it sound.

Condolences to the families and friends.

https://twitter.com/Johnson4Dallas/s...XiBgVhmNiK4n2w

.
Yes, the P-63 hit the B-17. The result is the same.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Also why do form flying anywhere near non-participants?

If they can't fly large warbirds safely, I'd rather they keep them in museums.
They can fly formation safely. They didn't fly formation safely. Both are correct.

They were all participants.

The P-63 is a low wing aircraft. In a bank, in a descent, in a left turn to wind up on a heading the same as the B-17, it's not hard to see how the B-17. may not have been seen at all until just prior to impact.

A very simple method of initial separation are altitude asignments, initial points, and turn points at the end of the show run. Boxes. Position calls. Establishing multiple show lines, even if using the runway as a fence. Simple things go a long way; we don't know how many were utilized and how many were violated, and how they were briefed that day, but doubtless that will come out.

Last edited by JohnBurke; 11-13-2022 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 11-13-2022, 11:09 AM
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Even people who fly formation for a living make mistakes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rluka-hdphI

Dissimilar aircraft formation is even tougher. I lost a friend that way and he was a damn good lead.

Flying in close proximity to someone who lacks the maneuverability to get out of your way puts all the onus on you. Not sure it ought to be done at all unless you do it regularly, and certainly not over a crowd.
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Old 11-13-2022, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
but my first thought before the sequence started, initial shots of the sky full of airplanes in different positions, headings, altitudes, climbing and descending was a recipe for busted beaks.

CAF has a bit of a history of mishaps; far more than should occur, given the limited hours they fly. That's not pointing fingers, but the aircraft are crewed by those who paid to be there, and who do it part time as a hobby, for the most part. Call it links in the chain, swiss cheese, whatever. Add together possibilities and it's not a linear chain where one weak link may lead to the mishap, but an exponential increase in risk. Add to it a public display, dissimilar aircraft, and various and sundry factors, and the risk level certainly goes up.
How about you let the families grieve before speculating who was at fault?

Especially since you have already gotten the basics wrong and said the B-17 hit the P-63.


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Old 11-13-2022, 12:34 PM
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I got nothing wrong. Two aircraft collided. One collided with the other; both collided. The P-63 struck the B-17. They collided. The B-17 collided with the P-63. The P-63 collided with the B-17. They collided. I listed them alphabetically.

The P-63 overtook, and descended and turned into the B-17. Everyone died.

I have made no speculation, whatsoever, nor have I assigned blame. I don't speculate. I don't guess.

I have repeatedly stated, correctly, that time will tell, and that the investigative process will bear out.

That said, the mishap is on video, and the mechanics of what occurred are very visible, and easy to see.
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Old 11-13-2022, 07:11 PM
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All the same,

Direct, focused, genuine. Driven, dedicated. Readable. Every writerís 1st challenge is to engage the reader. Strong there too. Why the anti-social, trigger finger sensitivity, canít begin to imagine. Heís not wrong of course. They donít really need black boxes for this one.
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Old 11-15-2022, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hopp View Post
Crazy abrupt vertical move by the Cobra at the last second, Reminiscent of the Mustang crash at Reno, where he lost elevator control. Still they were too close. What was the Air Boss doing?
Iíve watched the videos from multiple angles, Iíve not seen any ďcrazy abrupt vertical moveĒ by the cobra.

https://youtu.be/C342dfNPCyg
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Old 11-15-2022, 05:54 AM
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Not prior to impact, anyway.
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