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-   -   Another "near miss" at AUS (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/141511-another-near-miss-aus.html)

Palmtree Pilot 02-06-2023 11:42 AM


Originally Posted by Round Luggage (Post 3586919)
After watching the video I’d like to add, SWA culture is also at fault to a degree (I really like SWA). The pilot should never have requested a takeoff clearance right after hearing a clearance to land in that situation. I saw something not as close but the same situation in RNO, again it was SWA who got the takeoff clearance.

They didn’t request a T/O clearance.
They reported ready reaching the runway.

dera 02-06-2023 11:42 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3587168)
I don't see any ILS critical markings around 18L. In that case the regular hold-short lines are far enough away IIRC, and they are set pretty far back in the hold bay.

Don't know about whether position and hold on the numbers would violate the critical area, might be far enough away on a long runway but presumably a departure *would* bust it at some point on the takeoff roll.

I plotted it from the dimensions in FAA Order 6750.16, "Siting Criteria for Instrument Landing Systems". There are no markings on that side of 18L because there is no ILS critical area there, the LOC critical area begins shortly after the 1000ft markers on 18L, the G/S critical area is on the other side of the runway and does not extend to the runway itself. There was no way the SWA could have taken off without violating the required separation and the LOC critical area on the T/O roll.

I'm not sure about the 737, the Boeing I fly requires a 30 second runup in those conditions. If that's the case with SWA, that was poor SA from them to accept the clearance and not mention it to tower.
Still, nothing explains why the tower wants to run the operation that tight when conditions are so low (on the second approach, RVR was 800 at TDZ).

pangolin 02-06-2023 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3587168)
I don't see any ILS critical markings around 18L. In that case the regular hold-short lines are far enough away IIRC, and they are set pretty far back in the hold bay.

Don't know about whether position and hold on the numbers would violate the critical area, might be far enough away on a long runway but presumably a departure *would* bust it at some point on the takeoff roll.

Certainly line up would bust the glideslope critical area which is demarked on the other side and is arguably more critical than the loc.

JohnBurke 02-06-2023 12:52 PM


Originally Posted by Nordhavn (Post 3587192)
I always thought the 30 second pre-takeoff run was for ice shedding?? I don't think the FX guy should be calling aborts like that either.

Regardless of the reason for the runup, under certain circumstances, it's required. But yes, it is to remove ice, as well as to heat the nacelles. The point was (is) that there are very valid reasons to do a runup ON the runway, despite an idiotic dismissal to the contrary. It's quite possibly irrelevant here, as it didn't enter into the recorded dialogue, but was merely introduced by another poster.

In a Boeing , one rejects a takeoff, and aborts an engine start.

dera 02-06-2023 02:24 PM


Originally Posted by pangolin (Post 3587255)
Certainly line up would bust the glideslope critical area which is demarked on the other side and is arguably more critical than the loc.

That's what I thought too but rather surprisingly, the G/S critical area does not always extend to the runway itself. Makes sense given that autoland does not follow GS after a certain point.

pangolin 02-06-2023 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 3587351)
That's what I thought too but rather surprisingly, the G/S critical area does not always extend to the runway itself. Makes sense given that autoland does not follow GS after a certain point.

You know I can see this. The gs antenna is off to the side of the runway. The critical area is only on the side where the gs is. Interesting…..

NotMrNiceGuy 02-06-2023 04:07 PM

Just a statement of fact here. I’ve seen a lot comments about the possibility that SWA may have just switched over from ground and might not have known about FDX. That’s not true. In the takeoff clearance, the TWR Controller advised FDX was on a three mile final. Simple math tells you that’s about 90 seconds from touchdown at 120 knots. You could make the argument they were distracted or go-oriented, but not that they were not informed.

TiredSoul 02-06-2023 05:13 PM


Originally Posted by Otterbox (Post 3587185)
Maybe SWA wasn’t on tower when FedEx was cleared to land?
Maybe Engine Warmup/Runup time caused a delay? Or additional taxi time from behind the ILS hold short?

Definitely not ****ting on the SWA crew… they were cleared for takeoff. Runway was theres. I probably wouldn’t reject a high speed takeoff for a random voice on the radio using the word “abort” either even if I heard it… In a loud 737 on takeoff I could see missing a non standard call pretty easily.

In the same regard Im not ****ting the FedEx crew for taking their own go around at the last second and trying to get the SWA crew to abort the takeoff to avoid a midair over the runway…

It’s easy to pick apart crews for what was clearly a near miss caused by ATC. I highly doubt that either crew intentionally did things to put themselves in danger.

So they would have missed a “nonstandard” call from TWR also?

JohnBurke 02-06-2023 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by NotMrNiceGuy (Post 3587423)
Just a statement of fact here. I’ve seen a lot comments about the possibility that SWA may have just switched over from ground and might not have known about FDX. That’s not true. In the takeoff clearance, the TWR Controller advised FDX was on a three mile final. Simple math tells you that’s about 90 seconds from touchdown at 120 knots. You could make the argument they were distracted or go-oriented, but not that they were not informed.

My simple math says that the FedEx flight had better not have been flying the procedure at 120 knots, and also that a report of a "three mile final" doesn't necessarily mean the airplane is at 3.0 DME...it may be much closer. Certainly, however, SWA was informed of the traffic. Perhaps the tower controller thought SWA would be off a bit faster, given that their taxi speed is about five knots less than Vr.

dera 02-06-2023 10:07 PM


Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3587501)
My simple math says that the FedEx flight had better not have been flying the procedure at 120 knots, and also that a report of a "three mile final" doesn't necessarily mean the airplane is at 3.0 DME...it may be much closer. Certainly, however, SWA was informed of the traffic. Perhaps the tower controller thought SWA would be off a bit faster, given that their taxi speed is about five knots less than Vr.

3.0 DME to 18L is a 1.4 mile final.


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