Oh I do. Months at least if we take into consideration the FAA’s snail’s pace with anything regarding the MAX. We’ve seen how this plays out before.

Sorry Alaska & UAL pilots.

Probably nothing more involved than missing bolts on the plug door. There's some pretty good info floating around about how the plug doors work. Once installed by engaging the mechanism, they need to also install four bolts to keep the latches engaged. Failing to do that would allow the latches to eventually work loose given pressure cycles, bumps, and vibration. Sounds like you could engage the plug in the latches, and it would seat firmly (like a normal cabin door) so it wouldn't be obvious that you needed the retaining bolts if for some reason you weren't aware. Or maybe they intended to install the bolts later and forgot.

Also rumored that Spirit installed the plugs, and the fuselages were then transferred to Renton for final assembly and fitting out, where the plugs were removed for easy access to the interior. So the things might well have been assembled correctly, but bolts got left out when they opened them up again to install cabin seats.

Hopefully for the airlines involved the process failure was with a team installing cabin fittings, that seems easier to fix than the entire assembly line in KS.

Now about those 321 options, how many does HA have again?

18 on property. 6 more options. 4ish year wait.

Several problems need to be addressed before the FAA can authorize an inspection process and return to service.

First, why did the door fly off? Everyone is speculating that it was the loose bolts but the NTSB hasn't made an official ruling and the FAA hasn't said anything specific. Maybe the agencies, airlines, and Boeing already know the cause but the information hasn't been released to the public. Or maybe, the NTSB hasn't determined a cause. Either way, the FAA can't approve a fix until we have an official cause.

Then there's the problem of Boeing's failure to maintain the trust of the traveling public. Nobody trusts Boeing after the Max crashes, the 787 QC issues, and now the door blow-out. The politicians who run the FAA certainly won't hang their careers from Boeing's loose bolts. It wouldn't be such a big deal if it was only one aircraft with loose bolts, but both United and Alaska have found loose bolts throughout their fleets of Max 9s. Therefore, the only way the FAA could grant an easy fix is if Boeing shows that this issue is a closed case. Boeing has to pinpoint exactly how these bolts became loose, otherwise the quality control of their entire operation is suspect. Can Boeing trace this issue back to one crew, one shift, or one person? Then maybe they can claim it was a one-off training issue. Or maybe, they discover a typo in the manual, a missing page, or an incorrect diagram. Those could be valid explanations. But if the answer is "Our crews didn't properly tighten and fasten these bolts and we don't know why", then it stands to reason that Boeing's quality control is substandard and all Maxes need to go through a heavy check.

We can gripe about the FAA moving too slowly or administrators only caring about their political careers, but isn't that why we appoint independent government oversight? There must be independent, third-party oversight that is bound to the public's interest, or else complex entities like Boeing run themselves into the weeds. As somebody who operates a 737 for 600 hours a year, I welcome another set of eyes on the manufacturing process. I want someone with the power to say "no" who isn't beholden to the shareholders.

For all our Sakes here at AS, these planes better be coming back very soon, otherwise, we are looking to be overstaffed by at least 700+ Pilots!
We all know that AS is very good with “right-sizing” quickly to minimize loss of capital on the operation… 🤞

Thats what I was thinking as well. I bet they have already run the numbers on different "time the max is expected out of service" scenarios and got a plan to offer leaves............willing or not. They hate being overstaffed. They like running lean if anything.

So is the wedding off? Or do they need us more than ever? Cash burn sucks. HAL is king of that madness.

This is the most agreeable point in this entire thread. Boeing had repeatedly shown they only care about profit. It seems like safety is number 4 on their list of priorities. Alaska came out and said they’re already hiring people for oversight of Boeing manufacturing.

https://news.alaskaair.com/alaska-ai...tions/as-1282/


Fact of the matter is Boeing is no longer the same company it once was. They keep failing and the flying public is getting fed up. If it’s not passengers being nervous to fly on the airplane so they book on a competitor not flying the MAX, it’s people worried that if it’s a MAX, what’s going to ground an entire fleet again for their next vacation or work trip.

The USAF has TWICE sent generals to the Everett plant about absolutely basic problems with the KC-46. We aren't talking esoteric engineering problems or software glitches, we are talking stuff like metallic FOD and old Big Mac wrappers being found rattling around various closed spaces and the occasional fuel tank

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/y...-debris-found/

I've always liked Boeing. I hold shares of Boeing stock, but the recent goings on there are ridiculous. It's like nobody really gives a damn.

If pilots get laid off because of, ALPA should sue Boeing IMO

I think lots of people within Boeing care deeply about their customers, product quality and the company. I think the problem is with those in charge and their singular focus on profit. Read this white paper and take note of the date. What we are seeing today is a problem long in its creation.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...on-outsourcing

I doubt anyone's laying off pilots over this. "Recession" looks like soft landing, and summer travel is expected to boom. The big guys won't stop hiring, if you furlough pilots you'll never get them back, and future applicants will be less enthusiastic to apply to the only significant airline to furlough in many years (not counting covid, since that didn't stick).


Worst case might be more EIL if they don't get enough voluntary LOAs. But I don't think it will even go that long.

Boeing put pilots at risk flying these shoddy airplanes. Shouldn’t the union sue regardless at this point ?

Hypothetical risk isn't typically grounds for tort, unless you maybe suffered emotional trauma, PTSD, etc.

I think that would have to be individual lawsuits, not class action. Never underestimate the creativeness of the plaintiff's bar, but a class still seems like a stretch. Especially since any pilots who sue on those grounds or stand as a member of such a class are obviously putting their medical in jeopardy with the FAA (mental health).

Lost wages from furlough, yes. I don't think I've heard of that before, but it seems to make sense and BCA would not be a very sympathetic defendent in the eyes of the jury so they'd probably settle right up.

Also might have a claim for lost 2024 performance bonuses (hopefully not 2025 as well).

Might make more sense for AS to keep the employees whole, and then settle up with BCA after the dust settles. I'm sure that could all be done outside of the courts since it's only two airlines really impacted and BCA doesn't need press coverage drawn out for years by a legal battle.

It looks like Boeing probably has to dish out some cash to the airlines for lost revenue according to analysts. Alaska is most likely supplementing operational pay with Boeing money.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...9s-2024-01-08/

“On possible airline-compensation costs arising from Friday's accident, Citi analyst Jason Gursky estimated a daily cost of $2.3 million to Boeing, using RTX's (RTX.N) recent engine issues as a template for calculation.”


If you figure Alaska has half of the Max 9s in the skies, that’s about $1.15m a day to Alaska. 115 flights a day is probably about 1500 hours at 13 hours of flight time a day. 1500 hours and top of scale captain, FO and FA pay equates to about $1.14m a day in crew cost alone.

That will not get very far in a court of law.

Hawaiian got virtually nothing for the A321 debacle from Pratt. Did wonders to our balance sheet.

The difference between your feelings and what will be awarded in court is the difference between night and day.

My feelings on the incident and findings thereafter are irrelevant. Is it a feeling or a fact that multiple airframes have been found to have serious issues with these plug doors ? Someone could have been easily killed.

no, the issues they found were not serious. The media just reported it that way. None had bolts or pins missing. That would be serious.


the media has a habit of exaggerating and editorializing. Some loose bolts were found. But they were in place and secured. Loose doesn’t matter in that case.

Wrap it up boys! Case closed!

😂😂😂 right? I guess he’s got it all figured out.

Oh and our MX found more than just “loose bolts that were secure”.

how many cycles for a loose bolt to become a missing bolt?

zero if they have the pin. See you all have no idea what you are talking about.

Media is saying 4 bolts secure the plug. Well, is a little over 80 bolts. The 4 in question keep the door in place where it is secured by the other 80 something bolts. Engineering is hard.

If only you were as right about this as you are arrogant.
There was more found to be wrong with the plugs than what you are saying. I Don’t watch the news, don’t know what they are saying, it’s usually wrong.

A search on our MX website directly contradicts what you are saying.

We at SWAPA have a lawsuit filed against Boeing for lost income already. It’s been filed for about two years now.

🔥👇

Loose AND secured.

Roger that lol...

did they find the pins?

They could settle eventually and you will be paid. It’s all about litigation and the biggest law firm. Boeing has more cheddar than swapa.

Have you ever been sued or divorced ?

I can say the same thing about you. The stuff they are finding is minor. Just because something is loose or needs adjusting doesn’t mean the plug is going to fly off. The reason things are adjustable is because they can and need to be adjusted.

But a plug did fly off...

And yet there is a month old airplane missing the plug & it's a miracle no one was hurt or killed. Clearly something is amiss at Boeing & it's been that way for a while. No bolts, loose bolts, tools left in fuel tanks, trim pieces falling off of week old airplanes, engines melting off their pylons when the nacelle heat is left on (!), missed engineering targets on AF tankers, a couple of major crashes, the list goes on. Now is not the time to be letting Boeing off the hook for "minor" issues. Those little things might be (and likely are) covering up larger problems. Boeing needs to get their $h!t together and they've proven unequivocally that they can't be trusted to do it themselves. If they didn't want scrutiny from the feds or the media (deserved or not) there were multiple opportunities to fix their processes over the last several years. They failed to do so and are now finding about playing stupid games & winning stupid prizes.

First thing they should do is get rid of anyone who came over from MD during the merger. That culture has to go. It should also be taken private so there is no pressure to please shareholders.

I'm hearing that is incorrect on multiple AS airframes.

Also, my understanding is United found several loose or missing bolts.

Just stop. You're embarassing yourself.

Funny how the government can fastrack a lawsuit for an accusation of a wildcat strike or self help by pilots calling in sick, or not picking up premium like they might have in the past…. But, when the tables are turned and labor is suing a corporation, the wheels of justice virtually grind to a halt.

Remember the golden rule.

The people with the gold make the rules !

I doubt anyone from that merger is still working at Boeing.