Question re: UA flight 497
04-05-2011 | 12:52 PM
#1
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Question re: UA flight 497
In the audio, you hear the pilot or copilot:
"We've lost all our instruments right now, and we're going to need just a PAR"
I only know PAR as precision approach radar, but this wouldn't this require functioning instrumentation on the A320, or are they referring to guidance from ATC? Or is PAR something else? Something something runway?
Thanks -
- Bill
"We've lost all our instruments right now, and we're going to need just a PAR"
I only know PAR as precision approach radar, but this wouldn't this require functioning instrumentation on the A320, or are they referring to guidance from ATC? Or is PAR something else? Something something runway?
Thanks -
- Bill
04-05-2011 | 01:36 PM
#2
Prime Minister/Moderator
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
In the audio, you hear the pilot or copilot:
"We've lost all our instruments right now, and we're going to need just a PAR"
I only know PAR as precision approach radar, but this wouldn't this require functioning instrumentation on the A320, or are they referring to guidance from ATC? Or is PAR something else? Something something runway?
Thanks -
- Bill
"We've lost all our instruments right now, and we're going to need just a PAR"
I only know PAR as precision approach radar, but this wouldn't this require functioning instrumentation on the A320, or are they referring to guidance from ATC? Or is PAR something else? Something something runway?
Thanks -
- Bill
That's not to say it would be easy (unless you were ex-military and had a lot of practice...)
04-05-2011 | 02:10 PM
#3
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From: Curator at Static Display
Gyro vs No-Gyro PAR
Just a guess, but probably a prior-mil slip of the tongue, during the heat of the battle. Very few places (other than Navy) still have PAR radars. He may have meant ASR or simply "I can't see the airport, line me up."
PARs can be done with and without heading reference. It assumes you have at least a standby ADI.
No-Gyro approaches are initiated by the pilot. "I need no-gyro vectors for an (ASR/PAR)." For no-gyro, the controller would say "All turns on final are half-standard rate." (15 degrees of bank in my airplane). Once lined-up on final, the controller would say "Turn left," then would say "Stop turn." Works pretty well with a trained pilot.
Can also be done for ASRs.
PARs can be done with and without heading reference. It assumes you have at least a standby ADI.
No-Gyro approaches are initiated by the pilot. "I need no-gyro vectors for an (ASR/PAR)." For no-gyro, the controller would say "All turns on final are half-standard rate." (15 degrees of bank in my airplane). Once lined-up on final, the controller would say "Turn left," then would say "Stop turn." Works pretty well with a trained pilot.
Can also be done for ASRs.
04-05-2011 | 02:13 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
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I don't think I would call the pilots middlemen. The controller tells the pilots when to start and stop turns and descents. As I understand it, they were flying on standby instruments with masks and goggles on with a fairly low ceiling and a late runway change. Short of actually being on fire, this was pretty much a worst case scenario and it sounds like they did any amazing job.
04-06-2011 | 06:32 AM
#6
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From: retired
Even going waaaay back, I can't think of a single civilian based PAR or GCA as they used to be called. To my recollection they were only available to civil operations at joint use civil/military airports or military bases for practice if for low approaches only.
04-06-2011 | 07:31 AM
#7
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From: Self employed
I think Coast Approach in Southern California used to offer PAR's to everybody who asked (and if they had the resources). I know that I did several PAR's (no-gyro) in the 1980's in a civil aircraft, albeit a USMC flying club plane into now defunct El Toro (NZJ).
04-06-2011 | 07:57 AM
#8
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From: retired
But did they offer them to a strictly civil airport? I've never heard of a no-gyro PAR. Is/was there such a thing? I've flown several no-gyro ASR approaches.
04-06-2011 | 08:59 AM
#9
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From: Self employed
No, El Toro was a Marine Corps Air Station in southern California. Coast Approach was an FAA facility, on the field at El Toro.
Coast is now an area at Southern California TRACON, located at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego.
Coast is now an area at Southern California TRACON, located at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego.
04-06-2011 | 10:52 AM
#10
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From: retired
Yes, I'm quite familiar with the area. My point is, to my knowledge, PARs are exclusively operated by the military, physically located at an airport and runway specific. So unless it is a joint use airport, there would be no PAR equipment there. So Cal could probably conduct an ASR at any of the LA/San Diego airports for which they have published approach procedures.
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