USMCFLYR

I was just discussing AC 120-109 and this article ( Stall Training Issue Addressed by FAA, Aviation Industry | Aviation International News )
with a fellow pilot and we got into a discussion of the stall training during our intial and recurrent checks.
He mentioned that at a recent training event at Simuflite for the L60, the instructor had them training for recovery from stalls with the autopilot engaged and you recovered when the autopilot first disengaged (not to the sticker shaler or fully developed stall). I've only been to this type of training twice (1 initial and 1 recurrent for the King Air), but have not seen this approach to the training.

After our discussion I came across this paragraph from the article linked above:
I recently watch a program called 'Air Diasters' which features a mishap of West Carribean Airlines Flt 708 which is the same type of stall at cruise scenario which was also mishandled by the crew who did not recognize that they were actually in a full stall yet kept full backstick in until impact.
West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess my question to the forum would be are you seeing this type of set-up during your training/recheck events and are training providers / check airmen still focusing on minimal altitude loss?

USMCFLYR

Senior Skipper

We do initial entry into the maneuver with the AP. Our training dept. still wants us to maintain altitude though.

USMCFLYR

I go to recurrent again next week. I'm not expecting to fly into the entry on the AP but at least I won't be surprised now if it were briefed.
As for the expectations on stall recovery - that is disappointing since this AC has been around for 6 months or so.
Anyone else?

USMCFLYR

TheFly

minimal loss

PW305

We do stall training with the AP engaged both in the simulator and in the aircraft in the Lear 60. The AP disengages early in this aircraft so it's really more of a stall avoidance maneuver than a stall recovery. I usually do the AP stalls in a turn when in the aircraft to amplify the pitch changes.

In the last year as others have said the FAA has changed it's criteria for recovery, basically saying you may need a significant AOA reduction to recover correctly, as shown in the AF447 accident. We do this in the sim with high altitude stalls, where power available is significantly less and you must unload the wing to recover

LowSlowT2

I've long said the "approach to stall" recovery training with no/minimal altitude loss was a bad idea. Good to see the FAA finally reverse their stance and go back to full stall recovery.

I saw this AC several months ago and brought it to the attention of my training dept - haven't heard what guys are doing in recurrent yet, but I expect to go in a couple months, so we'll see.

KC10 FATboy

Previous company. We did stalls the old fashioned way, max relax roll. They also demonstrated a stall while on the ILS with the autopilot on and autothrottles off. The procedure was just push the throttles up at the first sign of an impending stall. The aircraft recovered nicely. Stalls were not part of the line check in the sim.

Current company. Stalls were part of the check and you could only have 100 feet of altitude gain or loss. Autopilot was off. Included a takeoff, traffic pattern, and final approach configuration stall.

xjtguy

Do 2 types of stalls with the AP on;

1) In high alt cruise. Takes a pretty (relatively) long time with a few thousand feet to recover.

2) On an approach.

In both cases, I believe it's with "minimal loss of altitude". But the training department stresses recovering aircraft control and speed above all else. IOW, as long as the plane doesn't crash or you didn't make the situation WORSE they don't seem to care about altitude loss.
.
Which is light years ahead, as well as more realistic than the old/outdated PTS of stalls that were taught to have little, if ANY alt loss and didn't really do much to train stall recovery.

You get the FX job or what?

Twin Wasp

Current job has been stalling with the autopilot on since at least 08. Ignore the airspeed tape turning yellow and the AIRSPEED LOW EICAS, wait for the shaker. They've lightened up on the altitude loss in the last couple years.

satpak77

guys what about entries. I have been at FSI a few times where they nickel and dime the entry procedure and sometimes seem to care more about that then they do the recovery. "hold altitude, ok you gained 100 feet, lets hold altitute, watch your speed, let it bleed off, center the ball ! center the ball....hold altitude". uh ?

my opinion the plane can stall itself (well, if allowed to do so....), and the recovery is much more important