USMCFLYR

And who says that the NTSB is breaking precedent? ALPA?
And your qualifications to question the NTSB's investigative processes are? APC poster?

I guess we both have opinions Snarge and as usual - ours differ.
I'm good with that.

Phantom Flyer

I'll certainly agree that the KAL accident/incident rate did decrease and that is wonderful. The infusion of qualified simulator instructors, a revamping of flight operations procedures and new safety initiatives did have the desired effect and your comment is correct MD-11 Freight Dog.

BTW, I'm a member of the FDPA (Freight Dog Pilots Assn.) although I'm not longer an active member. I miss "howling at night" !

G'Night Mate

Phantom Flyer

I didn't know that the NTSB was breaking precedent with a release of factual information regarding an accident investigation.

Given the very high profile of this terrible accident, I for one, think that Deborah Hersman is doing an outstanding job of keeping the public informed throughout the progress of the investigation. Let's face it, the flying public is generally uneducated about the technical issues of flying large aircraft that those on this forum take for granted. By releasing factual information as investigators uncover it, she is educating the public and thwarting a lot of "mis-information" before the media starts their own speculation.

I think she is very professional in her approach, well educated and well spoken. She is giving information without speculating or without conjecture. As a result, you may notice that the questions from the media are becoming much more objective, intelligent and the wild speculation has all but ceased.

Read her bio. She is an impressive advocate for safety and probably the best Chairperson the NTSB has had in years.

G'Day Mates

hoserpilot

It's easy to present facts when the fdr and cvr are found right away, countless videos of the accident exist, 3 UAL pilots get a front row view and the pilots are alive to provide insight. The data is there for the chairperson to give to the public. We could wait a week, a month or a year but it won't change the facts. Now the talking heads in the media can move on to screw up the next big news story.

Snarge

I never stated I had qualifications... as an ALPA member I defaulted to ALPA and its 80 years of experience in accident investigations... ALPA participates in accident investigations with the NTSB ... can you suggest why?

It's not my opinion, rather ALPA's.... all I did was stated that ALPA suggest that too much info too soon created bias to pilot error. What is your reasoning? I actually have one for you, if you can't articulate it....

The issue here is... you have an opinion that is counter to ALPA's critique that so much information shouldn't be release because it taints the well so to speak...

So I simply asked, why do you think so? And what qualifies your answer? because you are you and that is what you think? And how does that compare to ALPA's opinion with 80 years of history, party to accident investigations and advocate of creating the NTSB?

Snarge

Hersman might be articulate...

Are you an ALPA member? Meaning, have you seen this?

ALPA CALLS FOR THOROUGH INVESTIGATION OF ASIANA FLIGHT 214 ACCIDENT; WARNS AGAINST MAKING CONCLUSIONS BASED ON PARTIAL DATA


The Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l, released the following statement regarding the crash landing of Asiana Flight 214 in San Francisco on Saturday, July 6, 2013.

First and foremost, our thoughts are with those who were involved in the accident this past Saturday. From the crew to the passengers to the families and first responders, we hope they can gain some comfort during this difficult time.


ALPA is stunned by the amount of detailed operational data from on-board recorders released by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) this soon into the investigation. The amount of data released publicly during the field portion of the accident investigation is unprecedented.


It is imperative that safety investigators refrain from prematurely releasing the information from on-board recording devices. We have seen in the past that publicizing this data before all of it can be collected and analyzed leads to erroneous conclusions that can actually interfere with the investigative process.
The release of individual data points from the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder—without the context of the entire body of factual investigative data—represents a potential detriment to flight safety. It encourages wild speculation, as we have already seen in the media, about causes of the accident before all the facts are known, before investigators have the ability to determine why the events occurred, and in this case before the flight crew had even been interviewed.


This premature release of partial data is often taken out of context and creates the impression that the NTSB has already determined probable cause even before the investigation has started. Since each factor of flight, landing, airport environment, and crew is part of safe air travel, we need to ensure that reckless release of information is not sensationalized by the media for the purpose of a few headlines.
ALPA has long supported an objective accident investigation process that is based on the fundamental principle of obtaining all the facts to perform accurate analysis in the context of all factors that may have led to an accident. We stand ready to assist the NTSB or any state investigative agency in obtaining those facts and ensuring that an appropriate operational context is maintained.


ALPA urges the NTSB to make sure that the objective investigative process continues by gathering all the facts and relevant information before leading the public to believe that a cause has been determined.

USMCFLYR

And I said I did?

Yes - because in the interest of safety the NTSB asks for participation from a variety of sources. You seem to strongly suggest that the NTSB would not be around if not for ALPA. The earliest origins of thre NTSB came before ALPA was formed, so I tend to disagree with your point on that matter too. How it evolved into its latest form is probably a much more intricate process than either of us know; but I'm willing to bet a doallar that the NTSb would still be around if ALPA wasn't.
ALPA probably is pretty good at HELPING to investigate aviation mishaps, but it is still not the world's leading investigative body - or would you argue differently?

Yes - please put words into my mouth. It is always interesting.
So......to much accurate information (also called FACTS) is a bad thing because in place of facts the media will be quite and not speculate on the pilot's/crew's actions. Or do you think that ALPA's concern is that the NTSB Chairperson, repeating facts already discovered by the investigative process and relaying them to the traveling public, is going to taint the actual safety investigators and therefore they will be unable to complete their mission without bias?

Yes. And you seem to have the opinion that releasing factual information somehow misinforms the public. As I stated in the previous post - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You didn't say anything about the NTSB breaking precedent.
Would you care to share the other high profile investigations where the NTSB did not provide factual updates?

LNL76

Question for USMCFlyer or anyone else familiar with this but why is it foreign crews aren't subject to the mandatory drug/alcohol testing US crews are following an accident/incident? I was shocked when I heard it and it almost sounds like diplomatic immunity. I am in NO way suggesting this was a contributing factor, but curious nonetheless. Seems strange to me and not in the interest of the flying public. Also, are US crews afforded the same in foreign countries?

Thanks!

USMCFLYR

That was a first that I had ever heard too. I was surprised about that.
But US rules - FAA or airline specific - would required drug/alcolhol testing for US crews - same with the military. Doesn't matter where you are when you have that mishap (even deployed to a war zone) - you'll be giving a sample.

LNL76

Thank you for the quick reply and relieved I'm not the only one who was surprised by this! It doesn't make any sense to me as it's akin to a foreign citizen not having to submit to testing following a car accident. Mind-boggling and I hope maybe whoever is responsible for this loophole/oversight corrects it.