Great Photograph
 

Thanks for posting the photograph of the accident scene Jarhead :-). It really answers and yet begs a few more questions.

I think it's interesting to note that the debris field is to the right of the extended 28L centerline. That in and of itself, is a curious fact. Also, several people posted cell phone camera videos of the accident and the tail was definately in the water prior to impact with the rock wall.

With all the comments about the PAPI, which was operational, displaced thresholds, VASI, etc. let's not forget one undisputed fact. The weather was not a factor and this was a visual approach. We won't know what was transpiring in the cockpit, what interaction the crew had, what was programmed in the FMS or what was being said until the investigation is complete and the entire report released.

Still scratching my head trying to figure this one out.

G'Day :)

I,ve already given my thoughts on automation in previous posts so no sense in rehashing it again.
T7 approach into SFO-

Just returned from my first flight post crash. Really tried to put myself in their shoes as I was making my approach. The one pervasive thing that stuck me was, were the guy's hand on the thrust levers? If they were, and he was in the boeing proper seating position, his hand would be in line with his body, at idle....and at fully configured approach and on power, almost a half a foot farther forward. Now any pilot regardless of turbine airplane should instinctively know this.....I wonder where his hand was?

..I wonder where his hand was?[/QUOTE]

Un lees wong

strictly from a technical perspective...this crew's line of sight/field of vision on PAPI...could be reason for late/failed detection of sink... needs to investigated by Human Factors specialists in NTSB.

Guess I will chime in on part of this discussion, and while I don't fly professionally anymore, I think I can address the part of the thread addressing the ARFF response posts.

There's no airport on the planet that can put enough resources on the scene in less than 5 minutes to deal with 300+ patients, especially when they are scattered over 1,000 feet with some still trapped in what rapidly became a well involved fuselage. Not even FDNY can put those resources to work that quickly.

SFO is very well staffed, especially compared to other US airports, and their response time and offensive tactical actions in this incident were nothing short of phenomenal. An ARFF colleague of mine at BDL echoed that assesment. They saved a lot of lives.

A question I have that I am waiting for the investigation to finish is whether it is true that the Captain delayed initiating the evacuation by 90 seconds, and what effect that had on survivability.

The first Fire Lieutenant on scene reported when she made entry to the cabin there was a minimal smoke condition as they began removing passengers and crew. She also reported that as they got the last people off the rapidly deteriorating conditions in the cabin were heavy, rolling black smoke pushing under pressure and high heat (indicating imminet flashover conditions). The pictures of the cabin bear out the intensity of the post crash fire. Without doubt, the ARFF crews got the last people out with seconds to spare.

As far as the teen that was hit by the ARFF truck. Absolute tragedy, and I feel for the chauffeur of that piece. As horrific as it was accidental, with any luck the autopsy will find that she died on impact and not when she was struck. Sadly, this is not the first time this has happened. It also happened at SUX in the UA232 accident. When you have ejected passengers mixed in with debris, adding in smoke obscuring visibiity and it isnt hard to see how something like this can happen. An ARFF colleague and I were discussing this today, and he said they train for it, and they constantly watch for it. But even with that, it can happen.

As for training airport employees to assist ARFF crews I have trouble seeing where that would be a workable solution. For starters, who would you train? the relatively few Ops people, or would you add in airside airline employees, such as baggage handlers and gate agents? How would you account for employee turnover with respect to recurrent training? Like all of you, we have significant amounts of recurrent training in our jobs. And just as it is true in your profession that not everyone is cut out to fly airliners, it is equally true in our profession that not everyone is made to deal with what we see in our careers. It's a tough lift to make that idea workable.

Keep in mind when comparing SFO to SUX; not apples to apples, with the exception of the similarity in the number of pilots involved and the number of passengers. In Sioux City, there was almost 35 minutes of warning/prep time prior to the accident. Nearly 40 fire departments sent units. And the IA National Guard units were able to provide about 200 people. 200 members who were trained to take orders and work in high stress environments. Big difference between them and someone loading bags. With all due respect to ramp personnel, it just isnt the same environment or training level.

SFO ARFF personnel had no warning prior to this accident. Comparing the two incidents really isnt vaild with respect to the ARFF response, other than to say that in both cases it was outstanding.

I often deal with people involved in emergencies who think that it took us forever to get there. There really is something to the distortion of time in an emergency situation. There may have been some patients at SFO who waited a bit. We wont know for sure until the investigation is complete. Rest assured that the ARFF community, as well as all of us in the fire service, will be taking numerous lessons learned from this accident.

While I am now an engine company Lieutenant in a structural department and not an ARFF responder, I can assure you that the SFO ARFF crews did an absolutely outstanding job.

Hope that answered some questions and didn't hijack the thread.

Great post, and a great professional perspective to have here. Thank you.

Gdube, I appreciate your professional and informative perspective. Thanks so much.